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Why so angry?

So I’m reading this piece in Broadsheet the other day about a new paper on a study demonstrating that white women are most affected in terms of salary and promotion for being fat,* and against my better judgment, I looked in the comments. As you might expect, the usual suspects brought up the usual moral panic about fat people and healthcare (as do the commenters at a posting on the New Economist’s blog about the study, and their comments are even worse), but one person made an interesting observation:

In addition to the “you can if you really WANT to,” the “prove yourself” and all the other self-help that is more useful and more kindly meant, people have bought up the insensate, profane and semi-literate rage that is often expressed by men and women alike when the subject of obese white women is dragged into editorial columns yet again.

From the especially vitriolic women, I think it’s a way of women establishing superiority over other women while expressing fear of losing status in their subtext. “I’m not like that. I’m not fat. I’m not disgusting. I’m special — but, oh God, what happens if I gain weight? No, I’ve got to hate this so I won’t and can maintain my special perfect thinness.” Barf. And many of them do.

From the especially vitriolic men, it’s “how dare these THINGS not do everything they can to ‘prove themselves’ in our eyes, but instead OFFEND those eyes. They’re not LISTENING TO US.” These characters, especially the semi-literates, seem to think it’s the right of every man, regardless of how he looks, to have arm candy of his very own and to judge women who don’t meet that standard for whatever reasons. Thyroid, anyone? Water retention? How about pregnancy? Want a woman with a big belly to hide out lest your eyes be offended? Repeat after me, and without four-letter words, IT’S NOT ABOUT YOU.

I really wonder if this is the extent of it. The gibbering and incoherent rage that comes up when this subject is raised is really astonishing, especially that from men, and especially men who seem to think that they’ll be FORCED to find fat women attractive if fat somehow becomes acceptable.

Which I always think is rather revealing, because who’s to say fat women think you’re attractive, punkin?

But I do think this status thing ties into this terror of having to accept fat people, particularly fat women, and especially particularly fat white women. It’s like some kind of advance case of cooties or something, where the very idea of being seen as accepting a fat person as a human being might contaminate that person. And I’m sure a lot of it is simple social anxiety and far too much emphasis on status and the “market value” of one’s mate (which seems to be a big thing in libertarian circles these days). Because you might secretly be attracted to fat women, but you wouldn’t want anyone else to know about it, so you have to loudly proclaim how disgusting they are.

I also wouldn’t be surprised if there weren’t a significant feeling that fat women — you know, the kind of women who are supposed to be unattractive and unsuccessful at love — are getting away with something by having sex and relationships and being seen as attractive while not in possession of a body that shows proper conformity with the prevalent standards of beauty and the time, money and energy required to achieve them.

Thoughts? Why do you think there’s so very, very much anger and seething rage directed towards fat people, and especially fat women?

________

* There was no effect on the wages of white men, and black men actually benefited from gaining weight (probably because they were seen as less sexually threatening or something). Black women had an interesting wage progression: the thinnest black women made less than average-sized black women, but wages declined if they got heavier (though not as significantly as they did for white women). One commenter suggested that part of the disparity could be explained by white women getting a premium for being thin.


90 thoughts on Why so angry?

  1. It would be interesting to see how the wages of white men were affected by being fat. It seems a lot of guys who want the thin, white ‘pornified’ woman are themselves rather unattractive, but is there a point where the wages of white men suffer for being fat? I would guess ‘no,’ but that’s just a guess.

    Also, a lot of ‘fat terror’ comes from the idea that people don’t want to be made to be the butt of the joke.

  2. you know, I accidentally stumbled across a thread on a weightlifter’s website. I got the impression it was full of short guys who were trying to feel manly, who were bitter that girls didn’t like them no matter how big their biceps got. Ok, I mainly got this impression from the single quote “I bet she’s one of those sluts who only dates tall guys.” But the bitterness of that seemed representative.

    Anyway, one of these cretinous wormlets had as his sig: “Don’t you hate to see a fat chick smiling? Bad enough they exist at all, but the worst thing is to see them happy.”

    I haven’t got the wording exact, but pretty near. The sheer entitlement and, frankly, evil of the sentiment made it stick in my head.

    I do think it made something clear to me, though. These fuckers believe almost explicitly that a woman’s only purpose in existence is to be pleasing to men. A fat woman is, by definition, failing in this purpose. She isn’t even trying. Therefore, she has no right to exist.

  3. If you want the reasons I’ve observed from my mother and her family, they have said that being fat is a sign of someone who is unable to control their self-indulgent gluttony. When I probed deeper based on how they treated me during childhood and adolescence and how they continue to treat my older cousins’ spouses….I am lead to believe that it is derived from their wartime childhood where the only people who were perceived as able to gain enough to eat to become fat were the extremely wealthy and/or political elite. They often forget that using a society ravaged by the violence, depredations, and chaos of war to the point that people commonly died from starvation is a poor yardstick to judge what’s “normal”. This attitude was continued by the CCP who used anti-fat memes to denounce “decadent” Capitalists and their sympathizers in propaganda posters and witnessed/written down in some first-person accounts from those who survived the Cultural Revolution.

    As for Americans, the anger seems to also be derived from the “overindulgent glutton” meme from what I’ve encountered firsthand as a child/adolescent and from overhearing other people harshly criticizing whatever fat person happens to be within visual range. This happens with both genders…though I find the level of contempt and vitriol towards fat men tends to decrease as they leave high school and become young adults. As for the greater anger towards fat women, I think in addition to all the previously mentioned factors, the overwhelming social demands for women to conform to social beauty standards along with fears derived from the reversal of “normal” human sexual dimorphism. Many men feel uncomfortable if they meet women who are about equal size…..that level of discomfort rises greatly if the women concerned are larger than themselves…thus, the greater anger from many men when they see fat women….not only do they violate social beauty norms…they may also be perceived by those males as physically threatening due to their “large” size. I have overheard some talk along such lines from relaxed inebriated frat boys at some college parties I’ve been to in the Greater Boston area after undergrad.

  4. I also wouldn’t be surprised if there weren’t a significant feeling that fat women — you know, the kind of women who are supposed to be unattractive and unsuccessful at love — are getting away with something by having sex and relationships

    I think you’re right about this. Having a rich and rewarding life while being fat is a form of opting-out. It’s a way of giving a giant middle finger to the establishment. It undermines men who enjoy the ego boost of a woman’s deference to patriarchal beauty standards. Also, it undermines women who devote a significant amount of time and effort in becoming/staying thin in order to meet the beauty standard since attaining it often comes with nifty privileges that fat women aren’t supposed to get.

    The constant drum-beating of “fat is disgusting” is a just a reminder that fat women are not allowed to have any self-esteem and are to go about their lives miserably and only have goals and dreams which involve overcoming their fatness.

  5. Many men feel uncomfortable if they meet women who are about equal size…..that level of discomfort rises greatly if the women concerned are larger than themselves…thus, the greater anger from many men when they see fat women….not only do they violate social beauty norms…they may also be perceived by those males as physically threatening due to their “large” size.

    And you know what’s funny about that? Often I find that shorter, smaller guys are into me, possibly because they’ve accepted that they’re not the standard, either, so why not?

  6. I also wouldn’t be surprised if there weren’t a significant feeling that fat women — you know, the kind of women who are supposed to be unattractive and unsuccessful at love — are getting away with something by having sex and relationships and being seen as attractive while not in possession of a body that shows proper conformity with the prevalent standards of beauty and the time, money and energy required to achieve them.

    I think you hit the nail on the head right there. Fat women are transgressing boundaries if they enjoy themselves “too much”, if they say, “fuck the dominant paradigm”. Even more so if they’re having *gasp* sex, too. And some of that frothing rage may be the jangled nerves of folks on the notorious “low-carb” diet, which tends to make people more prone to pissiness—“look at her! who does she think she is?! she’s not on this fucking low-carb diet plan!! and she’s smiling!! Grrr!! (or so I’ve heard. Never been on a low-carb diet myself—just about everything I think is worth eating is high in carbs!)

    I don’t really know why white women take the penalty for size, but a commenter there might be on to something when she thought it might be because white women are expected to keep a certain fragile image. Y’know, part and parcel of the baggage colonialism carries on. White “femininity” was built literally on the backs and shoulders of darker and/or poorer colonized women. So, larger white women might be a subconscious reminder of peasant pasts that were thought to be transcended. That fragile “ideal” was an image that white women had to—and still do—try to “pass” into. Maybe there’s a unconscious fear of the tacit, visible rejection of that fragility.

    And yeah, that’s some heavy-duty armchair psychology, but—why not? ‘Cuz the reaction on all the fat posts/threads is anything but rational. There just has to be some unaddressed issues behind it.

  7. A fat woman is, by definition, failing in this purpose. She isn’t even trying. Therefore, she has no right to exist.

    I believe this is a huge component on the “war on obesity”. It isn’t about health, it’s about erasing a certain type of person.

  8. Why is there so much anger? Being a fat white woman, I can’t say I’ve noticed much of that around me. I see a lot of it online, which is probably why it has no impact on me.

    I’d more say, it’s because people feel more free to say whatever they damn well want online, but not so much straight at people’s faces. Which is why I find it personally easier to dismiss.

    That isn’t to say others might not have experienced in their own lives, it’s just in my life I haven’t. Either I’m very good at being obtuse, or maybe other people just don’t care that I’m fat. It’s never lost me friends or made unable to make friends. When I was younger, it didn’t stop me from having boyfriends or getting married. It actually hasn’t stopped me from doing anything.

  9. I also wouldn’t be surprised if there weren’t a significant feeling that fat women — you know, the kind of women who are supposed to be unattractive and unsuccessful at love — are getting away with something by having sex and relationships and being seen as attractive while not in possession of a body that shows proper conformity with the prevalent standards of beauty and the time, money and energy required to achieve them.

    This reminds me of one of the few parts of Legends of the Fall that had some meaning. (Watching it recently with more sophisticated feminist understanding was painful). The oldest brother is bitterly angry that he followed all the rules, but everyone loved the brother who followed none of them. I think part of the anger on the part of women is this same kind of psychology. We’re told that if we do everything right, we’ll get the rewards. If we’re thin enough, pretty enough, perfect enough, we’ll get the man, the job, etc. Many women suffer to try to meet these expectations, and are unhappy. They see other women “breaking the rules,” and think they should be punished. Or at least kept from the rewards.

    And it connects back to the way the patriarchy creates competition between women by setting up this idea that there are limited rewards.

  10. And you know what’s funny about that? Often I find that shorter, smaller guys are into me, possibly because they’ve accepted that they’re not the standard, either, so why not?

    Agreed. By both you and their unwillingness to be dragged down by the browbeating naysayers, you’re all showing you have far greater self-confidence than the men and women who pick on others for not conforming to social norms such as American society’s obsession with the “obesity crisis”. My feeling is that a lot of the guys not only fat-shame others, especially women to maintain social beauty norms, but also to avoid the possibility of becoming ostracized from their social group for not conforming with making fun of fat people/anyone who is different.

    Moreover, this isn’t only an American problem. Fat-shaming is far worse in China as historical factors such as lack of sufficient nutrition for the vast majority meant standards of thinness are even more extreme. I’ve seen female Chinese-American classmates who would be considered desirably thin by American standards routinely being called “fat” by Chinese locals. Included in this is the Chinese press’ own fat-shaming against the increasingly “obese” post-1980 youth born after the one child policy was adopted with most of the harsh accusations of spoiling them reserved for their parents and grandparents.

  11. Why do you think there’s so very, very much anger and seething rage directed towards fat people, and especially fat women?

    Because they aren’t trying to live up to someone else’s ideal. How dare they not diet and exercise and feel bad about their food and bodies like women should? How dare they not starve themselves to please the men and women who are forced to look at them?

  12. I have these cousins who all have weight problems. My rail-thin sister never seems to be able to talk about them without bringing up their weight. Finally, one day I snapped at her, “OK, they’re fat. I get it. Part of loving someone is accepting them for who they are.” She got all defensive about it.

  13. I wish I could find the study, but racism and money play into it too-pressure to be thin is pressure to play the capitalist game, and the idea of someone choosing not to is threating. my armchair theory for the racial disparity is that most people of color aren’t assumed to be serious contenders anyway, so they can’t effectively opt out, which enjoying not feeling a pressure to be thin is.

  14. The ‘war on obesity’ is really NOT about weight. Actually, there are plenty of ‘fat’ people who are very healthy. I’m an athlete. I go and work out, ect. I don’t ‘bulk up’ because that’s really not condusive to my sport, but I do lift for the purpose of getting strong. Anyway, I have heard guys say ‘I don’t like women with muscles’ and ‘Women body builders are more like men.’ This always pisses me off because these women want to be athletic and strong. These women ARE NOT fat, in any respect (except when you look at the BMI . . . but that doesn’t take into account muscle mass at all when athletes are concerned). Yet, athletic women can recieve the same type of hate directed at fat women. Is it because they’re unhealthy? Lazy? Unmotivated? Nope. It’s because they don’t care if they’re stronger than men they know. However, if athletic women are ‘thin and toned’ and look ‘effortless and chic’ when they work out, then it’s okay that they’re athletes. It’s not that people will come out and say they’re against women athletes . . . but they only like ‘feminine’ women athletes. Which is where I call ‘bullshit.’ In the end, it’s the breaking of the white, female ideal that is pissing people off, and it has nothing to do with how healthy fat women really are in most cases.

  15. She’s like those fundies who can’t shut up about TEH GAY. They’re afraid it’s catching.

    Agree with your later comment, zuzu; it’s rage at the idea that fat women are doing anything other than apologizing for their condition and doing their damndest to make themselves thin. A fat woman who dares to, you know, LIKE her body is not fulfilling her job of trying to please a man. It’s like a lesbian couple who won’t let you watch.

  16. Kali, I love your hypocrisy. It’s gotta be the short guys who work out to feel manly! No one should be judged or made fun of based on physical characteristics that can’t be controlled. But the fact that, oh I don’t know, a guy can’t control his height seems to be lost on many women women. The same feminists who are pissed about guys’ superficiality always tend to make fun of short guys and how their mysoginy is based on being bitter about their height and yada yada. G-d forbid they hit the gym so that they seem a little less scrawny to women. Plenty of large women, and men for that matter, can’t control their weight for a variety of reasons, some of which were mentioned by zuzu. But I’ll go out on a limb and say that height is even less controllable than weight. So lay the fuck off.

  17. I’m a fat low-carber. Just thought I’d mention.

    But I’m not white. So, from my pov, it doesn’t matter what color you are, if you’re fat the dominant paradigm is that you’re still a worthless pile of shite. Also, you’re responsible for global warming, crappy health care, the ending of the human race as we know it, blah blah blah.

    Bianca said:How dare they not diet and exercise and feel bad about their food and bodies like women should?

    That’s a joke, right? Seriously, you mean that in a sarcastic way, no?

    I suggest, if you haven’t already been there, many readers head over to Kate Harding’s Shapely Prose, most notably the recent posts: The Fantasy of Being Thin and its followups, Wait, Who Are The Crazy Ones?, Everybody’s An Expert, and (finally) Food, The Other Great Equalizer. The comments are, shall we say, enlightening.

  18. Leo, it wasn’t me making fun of their shortness, but of the fact that they felt inadequate about their shortness and were venting that by being vile about women. I appreciate that it’s a subtle distinction– well, actually it’s not, is it? There’s a clear and obvious difference between laughing at the kind of guy who says “I bet she’s a slut who only dates tall guys” and laughing at a guy for being short. I don’t know how you managed to confuse it.

  19. PS: since I don’t actually lose weight from low-carbing, please don’t tell me I’m dieting. Cuz I’m not.

    Eh, I don’t care if anyone diets.

    But I’m not white. So, from my pov, it doesn’t matter what color you are, if you’re fat the dominant paradigm is that you’re still a worthless pile of shite. Also, you’re responsible for global warming, crappy health care, the ending of the human race as we know it, blah blah blah.

    Definitely. But I think there are some subtle distinctions, at least from what I’ve noticed online. When it’s a matter of attractiveness, I see the most vitriol leveled at white women, probably because it’s white men who are griping about “having” to find fat women attractive. When it’s a matter of perceived laziness, women of color seem to get it worst, especially when they’re poor black women receiving some kind of public assistance. Which, again, often has to do with the kinds of people screaming about them, the kind of people who demand that poor people look like Somali famine victims if they’re going to be considered “reallY” poor.

  20. Kali,

    Let’s play insert words. Lets say there was a dieting website for women. And I saw a thread adn wrote “I got the impression that it was a bunch of [replace “short guys” with “fat chicks”] who got were bitter that men didn’t like them no matter how much they dieted.”

    I wonder if you’d get the subtle distinction in a phrase like that.

  21. Leo, kali gave a direct quote from one of the guys in which he stated that bitches just want to date tall guys.

    Get over it and move on, or be banned. Your choice.

  22. You’re off topic, and I’m not interested in having this thread become about you rather than the topic.

    Besides, your analogy was lousy. The guy on the site kali mentioned blamed women wanting tall men for his problems. In your analogy, the women blamed themselves. Not the same.

  23. Not trying to get your post off topic. If you’ll allow me to defend my analogy from the charge of lousiness without being banned, however, I’d apprecaite it.

    I was analogyzing the dieting to the “no matter how big their biceps” got comment. So to the extent that women dieting is an expression of self blame, I’d say men trying to get muscular is as well.

    Obviously, none of the quotes she mentions by those guys are anywhere in the vicinity of excusable, but her tone seemed a bit belittling to short guys, especially those who try to work out to compensate. I felt like it was important to point out. My apologies for getting off topic.

  24. I spent high school (at a Catholic all-girls school, which most likely made it worse) being the outsider. I was bigger than everyone else in my class, and they made me feel it. Everyday. So, as sports and being thin were the way in to “fitting in” — and as I was the standard insecure nerd, I fell for it. And it has been so hard to try to come out of that mentality — the guilt, the pain, the shame, the feelings of worthlessness — I wouldn’t wish it on anyone. I feel like people should try to be some sustainable combination of healthy and happy, and not let the distorted images of this society’s “ideal” woman influence them in this destructive manner. I know I’m not saying anything new or revelatory, but just wanted to say how hard it was and is for me — growing up with these “ideals” and this implicit value system — to detach from it and just focus on being the best me I can be, and not any idiotic and futile attempt to look like a supermodel and spend my life in a self-reinforcing and isolating hell.

  25. I take your point, but to me “short guys” is not a loaded phrase and “fat chicks” very definitely is. I have no particular feelings about “short guys” either way. Someone saying “fat chicks” is very definitely signalling certain feelings about fat women.

    But it’s possible that to you, the phrase “short guys” is loaded with contempt. So that might be coloring how you read it. I wasn’t trying to dismiss short men in general, just to explain the dynamic on that board in a succinct form.

    Anyway, I do think if I read your phrase, even with “fat women” substituted in for “fat chicks” I probably would see it as dismissive. That’s because I tend to think men online often detect bitterness in women where it isn’t there, and use bitterness as another form of dismissal. And I was definitely doing that,– there is no doubt that the bitterness was there in this case, but I was certainly using it to mock the people on the board and dismiss them. And given the contempt in the second half of the sentence, I’d probably assume that the first half of the sentence was contemptuous too, and that fat was being used as an epithet.

    So–yeah, I see your point, I guess. I wasn’t tactful, and I should have somehow linguistically separated my contempt from the adjective “short” a bit better, so it was clear the two weren’t related. I apologise for that.

    But given that I was genuinely struck by this aspect of the discussion (the fact it wasn’t jumped on told me it was a common whine around those parts), should I have just not mentioned it? Or is there a better way I could have put it? I’m kind of drawing a blank on how I could have described it any better without making you feel like I was being dismissive of short men, which I guess is a peril of trying to describe an actual embodied instance of an often-unfair stereotype.

    (and I hope zuzu doesn’t mind the off-topic exchange here. )

  26. Sorry for not addressing the question in the previous: From the people I know who were constantly pursuing that “ideal,” it seemed that their anger mainly arose from the pain/deprivation they put themselves through, and what their status would be if it weren’t “required” of them. The fact that other people didn’t feel that they *had* to do that to be accepted as human beings seemed an affront on their personhood and the ultimate value of their efforts. If you realized that didn’t have to starve yourself or work out like a maniac to be accept yourself and be loved (or for that matter actually be healthy), what would their striving look like? Total foolishness. So they lost both ways, in their internal judgment if they failed, and (from their perspective) in your judgment, if you thought their efforts were unnecessary (and potentially of no real value).

  27. Kali,

    I gotcha. Don’t know if there was a better way to phrase it or not, but it doesn’t matter. I see your original point and am glad you understand why it struck me a little bit hypocritical, at least on the surface. Thanks for your clarification though, it makes a lot of sense. And now, back to topic!

  28. I think Lalubu’s point is right on, from my armchair perspective and I’ve been making this empirical analysis for quite some time.

    I grew up white upper middle, in a striving, overly self conscious and oppressively patriarchal nuclear family. My step-mother was continuously badgered about her weight, especially after she had a kid by my father (his one big gift to her that he never stopped reminding her of). As a result, I absorbed a lot of insidious messages burned into my brain that my size demarks my femininity and most importantly, my worthiness to be accepted into my class.. Being a fat white woman was indeed a betrayal of the values that an upper middle white woman must uphold to be considered a member.

    Remember friends, a white woman, especially one dependent upon her immediate family (whether mom and pop or husband) are reminded regularly in subtle ways that non-compliance might just get them dismissed or shuttered right out the nest. Compliance is necessary for acceptance, period. If I had a dollar for every time I’ve heard the tired trope, “Yeah, he’s cheating on her, but Gawd, have you seen his wife? She just let herself go!” In other words, she refused to conform, refused to uphold the standard, to bear the cross for the white class and therefore, punishment by withholding is justified.

    I got off Lalubu’s point there about the history of colonization, which I think has everything to do with class structure here in America. The fragile belle who has the funds and support to spend her time at the gym, at the Clinique counter, the spa, sacrifices for her husband and children and also forgoes the donuts and the second serving in the name of love and decency is the white class/race ideal. She defines her personal strength and martyrdom for the cause by her denial, her denial is shown by her collarbones and that wide space between her thighs.

    Oh and yeah, my dad’s wife was compliant and so was I. She was a closet eater and later succumbed to liposuction which I think ruined her body and I was an anorexic most of my teen years. I still struggle with my body image and probably always will.

    Its only been recently, with the help of finding feminist support and my kids just calling me on it and I am trying to stop fat shaming myself and the world around me. I still have this voice in my head that tries to tell me if I’d just loose that extra weight everything else would run swimmingly.

  29. Interesting paragraph from the report itself:

    “The sociological literature yields one possible explanation for the difference in results between White, Black, and Hispanic females: that obesity has a more adverse impact on the self-esteem of White females than on that of Black and Hispanic females, who report perceiving higher weight as a signal of power and stability. Averett and Korenman (1999) studied 1990 data from the NLSY and found that obesity is associated with lower self esteem among White females, but not among Black females. However, they also found that controlling for the difference in self-esteem did not explain differences across race in the relationship between obesity and wages.” (chapter on “The Labor Market
    Impacts of Obesity”)

  30. A few months ago I went to a wedding and sat at the same table as an asshole. One of his asshole comments was about a recent trip to Amsterdam and noticing the women in the red light district. Asshole said they charge the same price for an hour with a fat woman as an hour with a skinny woman. Asshole pondered on that and the rest of the table tried to give reasons for it like, ‘maybe they do more than the skinny ones’ said one skinny woman and a man said, ‘maybe the laws require fair pay.’ I said: I bet a lot of guys like them and will pay just as much.

    From my own experiences, as a larger than mannequin woman, a lot of men claim to only be aroused by skinny women. But they’re totally fucking lying.

    I think the hetero-male, anti-fat criticisms are just as much self-loathing as real, external hate. These men feel the same beauty standards we do, it’s just that their role in the patriarchy is to be attracted only to women who live up to the standards. When they’re attracted to other women who don’t live up to the standards some of them turn that self-hate outward onto the women who break the mold. Certainly, there are just plain assholes, too. But I think a lot of fat-shaming coming from hetero men isn’t about the women at all.

  31. The gibbering and incoherent rage that comes up when this subject is raised is really astonishing, especially that from men, and especially men who seem to think that they’ll be FORCED to find fat women attractive if fat somehow becomes acceptable.

    Which I always think is rather revealing, because who’s to say fat women think you’re attractive, punkin?

    No freakin’ kidding, dude. The only thing these guys find more outrageous than that fat chicks actually get to have sex is that we also get to have standards. They’re like those homophobic guys I used to run into in college who had their longjohns in a giant knot about the idea that some other guy could be admiring their asses. Yeah. In their dreams.

  32. Actually on topic: one thing that is really striking to me about the study is that in examining wage penalties for unattractiveness it has been found that men get penalised for it more. And I think that’s an interesting finding in itself, but combining it with this, it seems that the penalty for fatness is not, actually, about sexual attractiveness. It’s about fatness itself. And yet it only applies to women.

    That is weird.

  33. As a fat white woman who also happens to be looking for a new job, this study really hits home. I’m extremely qualified in my field, with a very stable (10 years+) job history and excellent references yet I am finding it very difficult to get a new position, especially a higher one than I have now. I’ve been told by recruiters that the company requires headshots and I’m just not going to be a fit there (this is a legal firm, not a modeling agency) or that I have too much “flair”, which I guess is the new euphamism since I was wearing a black suit, hardly outrageous. And it has even been suggested to me that I take a secretary or paralegal job, even though that is a huge step down from my current position. It’s not about my qualifications or my references, employers/recruiters gush over them on the phone, these are comments I get when I go in to see them face to face. Yeah, I am in an unusual field, but do I think my weight is a factor in these comments? Absolutely.

    I’ve never quite understood why anyone else even cares what I weigh, much less gets so angry about it. And I understand even less why it should effect how well I do my job or how much I get paid for what I do.

    The only time in my life I have been even a little bit thin was when I was taking diet pills, and eating less that 800 calories & less than 10 grams of fat a day. I was blacking out almost daily but nobody – not friends, family, coworkers or even doctors – ever suggested I stop doing that. Funny how so many of them think they need to tell me how to lose the weight now. Evidently the fact that I am happy, healthy, successful, good at my job and in a steady relationship mean nothing unless I am thin too…

  34. Crap in a hat, HotRodGal, what part of the country are you in? I’m not doubting you, but the stupidity is goggling; what idiots decide “gee, this person would be a great asset to our law firm, but she won’t look hot n’ slender in the headshot we put on the firm website”?

  35. I’m in Texas, but yes, it is absurd. And I think part of the concern had to do more with being in trial a lot, I just think the headshot was required by the firm prior to interview to make sure they had pretty people in front of the jury. Certainly a fat gal helping choose your jury would look very bad for your client, so why waste time interviewing one?

  36. I think I read this study once where an author traced our anorexic society back to the 1920’s where flappers were starting to show skin and express open sex drives (women got the vote too in the 1920’s). This author proposed that women were allowed to have either a sex drive or a food appetite, but not both. That was double dipping I suppose.

    There is something threatening about a large woman to men and even other women. I can’t tell you the times I’ve overheard women talking about another woman that a man left a woman over and the women saying, “I don’t get it, she’s fat.” If you are a women in a position, some other women think “I don’t get it, she’s fat.” It’s weird.

    And don’t get me started about the new puritans who are liberal, but fat people are the one group they look down upon with their half glasses. It’s for their own good, you know. On that thread on Salon, they seemed to suggest that paying a large white woman less on the job is a good thing; it’s like incentive. There there were all the apologists that dashed in to say that some medical conditions and drugs make you fat – so it’s not their “fault” sometimes. Other people dashed in to say that they were working on their weight, so don’t judge them harshly. Someone suggested that a patch be issued to distinguish between those who are trying to lose weight and the others so you could righteously beat the right ones. Oh, it’s so hard to beat down the right people.

    There’s something a little bit gay I think about men who date for the admiration of other men. And ya have to keep score. So somehow, the thinner ones were more valuable amongst the white guys. I also have seen guys who were attracted to a larger woman but kept it hidden from their friends. But the friends opinion was greater so they ultimately dropped her for one the status climbers would approve of. It’s a little gay when you think about it.

  37. I wonder when the image of beauty in our country turned from curvy and pale (as a symbol or wealth) to super thin and tan. This current standard always symbolized the working class women, ones who had to spend hours laboring outside, thus getting tanned skin and not enough food. When did this become the unattainable image and when did the heavier, pale woman become such a target of discrimination?

  38. zuzu, I suspect there’s some racist stereotyping in there as well.

    Oh, I don’t doubt it. Here’s my take on it:

    Fat white man=jolly

    Fat black man = teddy bear, not sexually or otherwise threatening like a thinner black man

    Fat black woman = sassy big mama, also less sexualized than a thinner black woman, ergo less threatening

    Fat Hispanic woman = motherly and competent

    Fat white woman =not a team player because she thinks she can get away with following her own standards

    I’d also imagine there is quite a bit to the speculation that self-esteem plays a pretty big role in this, since black and Hispanic women are not penalized for being fat in terms of being told they’re worthless and unattractive the same way white women are, so they’re not going to feel bad about being fat to the same degree that white women are.

    I’d love to see how these numbers break down according to the race, gender and weight of the person who determines the salary.

  39. A feminist classics student I used to know once told me that she thought misogyny began in the belly – that in Greek society in times of famine, women were expected to go hungry rather than letting men go hungry, that a woman with a full belly had adopted a privilege that she wasn’t supposed to have. A fat white woman has taken a white man’s share.

  40. FeministGal,

    Today, being super-thin and tanned IS a symbol of wealth. Our economy has shifted so that many of the lowest-wage jobs are indoors (and often sedentary) and highly processed, caloric foods are cheap. Being thin and toned suggests enough leisure time to go to the gym or eat nothing but organic spinach if you want. It suggests money for personal trainers and diet pills. Being tanned suggests time to go to the beach or money to go to the tanning booth.

    I also think that the concept of class plays into this– we want to believe that poor people are poor because of some personal failing of theirs. “Oh, she’s fat because she sits on the couch and eats donuts all day” sounds a lot like “Oh, they’re poor because they just don’t know how to manage their money” or “She should just get a job at McDonald’s and stop complaining”. RIch people are supposed to be in control of themselves; poor people are supposed to be uncontrolled. And for white women, control of self means control of appetite. Appetite is seen as something almost vulgar– if you can’t have a ‘take it or leave it’ attitude about food (or sex) all the time, you can’t forget that you have a human body that’s all squishy and fragile and mortal. As if somehow we’re supposed to be above all that.

  41. There is a book by W. Charisse Goodman (can’t remember the title, sorry) where she states that “fat prejudice” is the new acceptable face of misogyny. The fat woman becomes the acceptable target for all the misogynistic hatred that men can spew at her. And this also serves as a function to keep thinner women in line – don’t you dare gain weight or you might be next!

    I have noticed, also, that the first thing that comes out of some white men’s mouths, when they hear about a white women in an interracial relationship (with a Black man), is OMG FATTY! I have heard white men (and some white women too) say that white women who marry interracially are fat and “can’t get a white guy.” I sense here a fat-shaming that also serves to keep thinner women in their places (as per Goodman) – from exercising their free choice in marriage. I really don’t know how many women are scared off of IR marriage due to fat-shaming (or if any really are, in fact) but I don’t doubt that some white men are trying to keep “their women” in line this way.

    HotRodGal: Good luck in the job hunt! If you are at all the pagan type, burn a green and a brown candle on your altar. And have you contacted your alma mater’s career department for help?

  42. A feminist classics student I used to know once told me that she thought misogyny began in the belly – that in Greek society in times of famine

    Granted classics majors think that Athens was the center of all human civilization,but I suspect misogyny started before then.

    Certainly a fat gal helping choose your jury would look very bad for your client, so why waste time interviewing one?

    Good grid. MOVE.

  43. Isn’t obesity correlated with diabetes, heart disease, cancer, and other health problems? Wouldn’t it make sense that males would select a healthier mate? Just throwing that out there. Even as a slightly chunky woman, I’ve never questioned men’s preferences in this area – it makes sense. Just like I would rather have a strong, healthy male for a partner.

  44. There was no effect on the wages of white men, and black men actually benefited from gaining weight (probably because they were seen as less sexually threatening or something).

    Or something.

    Thoughts? Why do you think there’s so very, very much anger and seething rage directed towards fat people, and especially fat women?

    Something to do with being some of the last holdouts of “acceptable” discrimination. It’s like all the festering hate of Westerward expansion, 19th century immigration, slavery, Jim Crow, anti-Catholicism, etc., has been funneled into…just this. Sorta.

  45. Isn’t obesity correlated with diabetes, heart disease, cancer, and other health problems? Wouldn’t it make sense that males would select a healthier mate?

    No. Actually, the longest-lived people are those who fall in the “overweight” category. It’s actually healthier to be 50 pounds “overweight” than 10 pounds underweight. Not that the very thin should kill themselves trying to gain weight as that is just as futile as a fat person trying to become permanently thin.

  46. I cannot believe we are having this conversation YET AGAIN. Most people – overweight and otherwise – are aware of diabetes, heart disease, etc. etc. Fat people have heard this from their doctors, among others, oh about a jillion times.

    And it’s very possible to be fat and fit OR thin and unfit. A skinny Minnie who never exercises and eats only processed food is going to be a lot unhealthier than a “fat” person who is physically active and eats a healthy diet. It’s not rocket science.

  47. Ok… confessional time:

    I used to date this guy who would needle me a bit about things like always having chipped nail polish, or keeping my hair long. He ditched me for a girl, whom I (very bitchily) described at the time, as looking like a 300 lb gorilla with fetal alcohol syndrome. It pissed me off in this really embarassing way, I guess. Because I thought to myself “I’m not ok, but that is?”

    The funny thing is that, the thing that really bothered me the most, was that even though this girl was not so smart and generally a horrid and miserable bitch… and I’m quite intelligent and usually nice (except when people piss me off- then I’m vicious)… but everyone acted like it was this big “Pretty and Pink”- like triumph or something- the homely but good-hearted steals the guy from the vampish bitch. And it really, really bothered me. It was very “Fuck you, I have a ‘good personality’ too!”

    I realize this is not all that coherant and pretty much going nowhere. However, it’s just… weird to feel things that you would generally ascribe to people you think are awful.

  48. huh, i read this post and looked around my office!

    larger african-americans of both genders-check
    white men of all shapes and sizes-check
    scads of thin, pretty young white women-check

    i’m the “big girl” of the white women, I’m 5’8, weigh 155 pounds and wear a size 8 or 10. this is official, openly discussed, i’m automatically offered the last slice of pizza when we order out. i’m the only one who has two. at 31, i’m also one of the oldest. for awhile, i was paid less, until i pitched a fit. that may be a coincidence, or due to my “low self-esteem” but wow.

  49. YouGoGirl, nobody stays “strong and healthy” forever. IAnd there is no body type or set of behaviors that will guarantee not getting cancer, heart disease, or diabetes. I have a friend with aggressive stage III breast cancer who has always been thin and always been a health food freak and gotten plenty of exercise and not smoked, etc. If something similar happened to your “strong and healthy” guy, what would you do, dump him? Or should that happen only to people who “deserve” illness, like fatties?

    Not bad, though. It actually took a good 48 comments before healthist concerntrolling reared its fashionably undernourished head. Progress, baby!

  50. Isn’t obesity correlated with diabetes, heart disease, cancer, and other health problems? Wouldn’t it make sense that males would select a healthier mate?

    First of all, we’re not talking about preferences here. We’re talking about men who get violently angry at the mere existence of fat women. Not men who shrug and say they prefer slimmer women, but men who talk about fat cows and no fat chicks and how they hate to see a fat woman smiling or looking happy or wearing nice clothes. Why is it so difficult to grasp that distinction? How many times do we have to say WE DO NOT WANT TO FORCE MEN TO FIND FAT WOMEN ATTRACTIVE. WE JUST WANT THEM TO TREAT US WITH BASIC RESPECT.

    Secondly, I doubt very much it’s about health. If it were about health, nobody would be calling the very healthy looking Jennifer Love Hewitt too fat to have sex with. Nor would men be drooling over underweight women like Jennifer Aniston (she has a BMI of below 18, which is associated with more health problems than mild obesity).

  51. I cannot believe we are having this conversation YET AGAIN. Most people – overweight and otherwise – are aware of diabetes, heart disease, etc. etc. Fat people have heard this from their doctors, among others, oh about a jillion times.

    I can totally believe we are having this conversation again, unfortunately. Because if they can say that being fat means that you are unhealthy and likely to keel over and die at any moment, than it can be justifiable to reject such people. Why even bother think about dating anyone who isn’t thin, since who knows how long they will live or how full a life they will have because they will be too busy dying from teh fatz? Why hire a fat employee because they will obviously be taking sick days left and right from all the diseases and general laziness that automatically comes with some wobbly flesh? Why even bother to give fat people the same respect as everyone else since they clearly don’t respect themselves enough not to eat 300 Twinkies (or whatever you fat-people-stereotype food of choice) a day?

    The problem is though, as Ailurophile, said there really is no way to tell what kind of diet or lifestyle a fat person may have, and even more importantly, there is no way to tell by looking at a person’s waist size whether they will be a hard-working employee, a loving partner, or any of those other things which we claim to valuable above the size of someone’s pants.

  52. I suspect the level of anger is rising as fat acceptance is moving into the mainstream. I think many people have been duped by the OMFG OBESITY CRISIS!!! talk for years but now that they’ve taken it to the extreme (Jennifer Love Hewitt is fat; Santa needs to diet; no birthday cake for kids parties at school, etc.) there is a backlash. Well, the fat haters are used to being in total control, and I think they’re in hysterics over the thought that progressive circles will no longer have the knee-jerk “Fat is unhealthy. Love the fat person, but hate their unhealthy fat bodies!” response to these issues. Although, YouGOGirl reminds us that it’s obligitory that someone on a comment section, even on feminist, progressive blogs must bring up the position of Fatisunhelthydiabeteshighbloodpressuredeathdeathdeath.

    MissRobyn, you describe your romantic rival as looking like a “300 lbs gorilla with fetal alchohol syndrome.” also she’s “not smart” and a “generally horrid bitch” but then point out that you’re much nicer than her. Um, sure, right, you come off as really nice in that comment. You’re not the first thin woman to get ditched for a fat woman, mainly because people don’t always find love based on what the magazines and teevee tell them is okay to love. Sounds like you’re truly bitter about losing your boyfriend to someone you perceive as way less attractive than you are. Get over it. Really.

  53. Meowser: my sympathies to your friend. You might want to tell her that breastcancer.org is a gold mine of information, plus there is a bulletin board full of women who have BT, DT, and can offer all kinds of advice.

    I might add, that I’m of average weight; exercised, tried to eat well, and never smoked. I got breast cancer at the (youngish) age of 43. I’m convinced that environmental pollutants are behind the cancer epidemic; at any rate, being thin doesn’t guarantee you a cancer-free life. Or a heart-disease-free life either. (I’m not really sure about diabetes, but I would assume that someone can be of “normal” weight but have a terrible diet and thus get the disease. It’s also true that some ethnic groups are far more susceptible than others; there are some Native American reservations where more than half the population has diabetes.)

  54. Just throwing that out there.

    Translation: I’m a guy who has issues with fat chicks, but I’ll concern-troll and pretend to be a woman who knows her place.

  55. i’m the “big girl” of the white women, I’m 5′8, weigh 155 pounds

    This is pure quackery. (not by you, but by anyone who would label these attributes “big”)

    I’m curious…where are these places you work that have such ridiculous body-image analyses and beatdowns? This is not ignorant male talking here; my wife is 5’7″, 175-180 pounds and has no deals whatsoever with body image stuff where she works (in a laboratory). Are we talking about Realtors? Law firms? What?

  56. Sorry to chime in on the OT here – I don’t feel I have a lot to contribute to the fatness discussion other than that I agree it’s about people being offended by “fat” (to whatever degree) women refusing to be put in a box. I get so sick of anti-fat comments. >:|

    But I have to say I was slightly offended by the short weightlifters comment. My partner and I (he’s male, I’m female) are both interested in bodybuilding. He did bodybuilding in a half arsed kind of way (ie: trained every day but wasn’t interested in competitions) for 20 years. Gained 20kg but never got very big because his metabolism is too high. He finds very muscular women sexy and while I’m doing very little at the moment I’d love to gain muscle: I’ve definitely got the body for it. We met doing Muay Thai and were both fighting so he’s definitely not intimidated by strong women – though the bastard’s done Judo as well so he can kick my arse. LOL

    So basically when weightlifting is something you’re interested in, you notice comments like that. They are common, and quote notwithstanding your post sounded very much like every other “men who do bodybuilding must have small penises!!” comment I’ve ever heard.

    Sorry if you didn’t mean it that way, but that’s how it came across.

  57. I’m not wholly decided on what might cause the widespread vilification of overweight people in general, just a few ideas:
    1. General persecution of a minority. (But then again, isn’t it likely to soon become a majority?)
    2. Social snobbery – society places higher status on that which requires money to attain. When food is scarce, weight is prized, but when food is plentiful, thinness achieved by fancy diets and elaborate exercise regimes is all over the tabloids.
    3. Fear of the unknown.

    As for why women get it worse, you got it bang-on in the original post – there’s a certain kind of guy who seems personally offended by women who have the audacity not to be attractive to him. I’ve never been overweight, but neither have I ever been much of a looker, or (seeing as I’m a transman) attempted to portray myself as attractive to the heterosexual male gaze. And I got hell for it at school from guys who seemed mortally offended by my ugliness, and considered it their mission to ridicule the ugly out of me.

  58. I thought I should mention BTW that there certainly are a lot of jerks who are into weights, and definitely some men are overcompensating for some perceived lack.

    And I don’t want to be muscular because my partner likes it – I’ve always been more interested in strength and muscle than being a waif (which is lucky because that’s NOT going to happen lol), though he has influenced me to find extremely large men and women admirable rather than freakish. Though sadly to compete on the international circuit everyone knows you have to take steriods – which WILL make women “look like men” since it squares up your jaw… One of many side effects 😛

  59. But YouGoGirl, that doesn’t explain why men (and some women) are cruel to fat women – why they resent their very existance.

  60. Maybe (musing on the original question) some of these guys who really get offended that women dare to be fat are thinking that if lots of women let themselves be fat and are still happy, the rest will eventually follow suit.

    Maybe “We’ll be FORCED to be attracted to them” really means “How am I supposed to impress The Guys if women stop doing their job (of being unearned trophies)? I’ll have to get off MY ass and actually do something if I want to keep my rank in the pecking order.”

    I’ll bet this type is so genuinely LOST about what it means to have true self-esteem that they literally wouldn’t know what to do with themselves if women stopped being the barometer for their Guy Status. If women let their job go, maybe men would give serious thought to THEIR job of always trying to be the Alpha…nah. Never happen.

  61. From my own experiences, as a larger than mannequin woman, a lot of men claim to only be aroused by skinny women. But they’re totally fucking lying.

    theres actually a really good essay in the Bust anthology written by a man who was attracted to larger women, about how he felt like he had to hide that part of himself from the other men or risk being ridiculed. he got past it and called out the bullshit, which was refreshing.

    my own boyfriend goes the obnoxious route of telling me im not fat, same with my best friend. of course, it could be something theyve internalized, both being heavier themselves. its so effing patronizing tho, becos i kno im fat, im 5’1” and i weigh 168 Lbs, thats fat, at least on my frame, where i carry all my weight in my stomach and breasts yet have no hips or butt, and i would much rather they say “well, yeah, you’re fat, and you’re pretty/funny/smart/sexy/fun” instead of pretending im something im not. most days i like my body, and i try to get people to understand that fat is a descriptive term, not an insult, when i say it im not putting myself down, its just a description, like when i say im pale, or i have brown eyes, or that im short. its just a fucking word. it only becomes an insult becos even well meaning people treat it like its the worst thing you could ever say about yourself.

  62. YouGoGirl said: Isn’t obesity correlated with diabetes, heart disease, cancer, and other health problems? Wouldn’t it make sense that males would select a healthier mate?

    Studies also show that death has 100% correlated with living.

  63. Slightly off topic, but did the study look into class at all? Weight is closely linked to class—poor people have fewer nutritional options and don’t have access to gyms or personal trainers. So wouldn’t the salary gap be partially because women from a working class background are more likely to both get shitty jobs and be overweight?

    Of course, it’s a cycle—they’re less likely to get better paying jobs because of salary discrimination. At any rate, the effect is the same: larger women getting screwed over.

  64. But YouGoGirl, that doesn’t explain why men (and some women) are cruel to fat women – why they resent their very existance.

    Exactly! If it was really about fat women’s health, there would not be the anger and the cruelty and the shaming. Nobody gets mad and cruel to people with other health issues. YouGoGirl, while I don’t agree that your correlations are correct, using your example, cancer is also correlated with living near power lines – should men automatically prefer women living far from them? And is it okay to be cruel to people who live near them? Yes, that is ridiculous, but then why is it okay for overweight people?

    And are we really supposed to believe men are choosing a mate based on good health?? I’ve heard of men dating women for lots of reasons, but never that one! Pardon me if I am more than a little skeptical of that one, it’s not like they need to find strong women to help in the fields and run the farm!

    The problem is though, as Ailurophile, said there really is no way to tell what kind of diet or lifestyle a fat person may have, and even more importantly, there is no way to tell by looking at a person’s waist size whether they will be a hard-working employee, a loving partner, or any of those other things which we claim to valuable above the size of someone’s pants.

    Well, being overweight, we’re kind of damned if we do, damned if we don’t. It’s assumed that fat women sit on the couch and do nothing, but when fat women try to go to the gym, they get made fun of or have to deal with rude comments. It’s assumed we have “let ourselves go” and we’re supposed to try to look “nice” but plus size clothes are not always the most stylish or sexy and hey, nobody could find us attractive anyway. People think fat women are lazy, but when we work hard to prove differently, we’re not rewarded for it. And well, if we don’t have the best self esteem from all the years of negative messages, obviously shaming and cruelty will help that. No matter what we do, we’re screwed in some way. Thank goodness some of us finally accept and love ourselves for who we are and go on to live full and successful lives with partners who love us and *gasp* even find us sexy. That’s my way of giving the finger to the fat shamers!!

    And thank you Ailurophile, I will look for a green candle when I go out next (I’ve got the brown one already). I figure any positive energy I can throw out there can only help!

  65. Wow, all this crap about health makes me want to throw things. I am SO OVER people coming into discussions about fat and talking about health.

    1. “Fat” =/= obese
    2. Different people are healthy at different fat levels
    3. Women can carry a lot more fat than men and be healthy, yet the focus is always on women. Funny that.
    4. The level of fat that we are constantly shown in movies, ads, music vidoes, and pretty much everywhere is neither natural nor healthy for any but the tiniest percentage of the population. We don’t hear a lot of concern for people who look like that – and no, I’m not talking about anorexia, nor do I want to hear concern-trolling aimed in that direction. I’m just so sick of this same goddam discussion every time.

    How hard are the above points to understand??

  66. I’ve always thought there is strong class element in fatphobia.

    My ancestors and immediate family gained weight in a shot. And good thing, too, they were poor as dirt. They needed the ability to pack on fat, and they earned it through natural selection.

    Rich people throughout the generations never needed the fat gene; they never required any extra weight to carry them through sudden famine, poverty or shortage. I think that may be how thinness was first fetishized–in imitation of gaunt, European royalty: You can’t be too thin or too rich.

  67. I take your point, but to me “short guys” is not a loaded phrase and “fat chicks” very definitely is.

    It is to short guys.

  68. WE DO NOT WANT TO FORCE MEN TO FIND FAT WOMEN ATTRACTIVE. WE JUST WANT THEM TO TREAT US WITH BASIC RESPECT.

    Thank you.

    Do I think there is some connection between the media and society promoting fat as synonymous with “ugly and repulsive” and the fact that most people don’t find fat people attractive? Hell yes.

    Is it my main concern? Not really. Mostly I just want people to think I’m a human being just like them, not a pathetic loser who they “shouldn’t have to look at.” Who they date is their business; I’m not calling anyone on their reasons for finding anyone else attractive.

  69. My mom is in business. She was laid off from a company, and during the process of trying to find a new job, she had several that she didn’t even bother getting back in touch with. Why? She could tell that they wouldn’t hire her because she’s fat. (And she’s in her 50’s.) It pissed me off when she called me to tell me about it, since it would depress her each time.

    (As an aside: think, and this is my opinion, that the diet industry, the media’s hyping on the “obesity epidemic”, etc. are a form of legalized verbal/emotional abuse.)

  70. As someone who was pretty damn short until my early/mid 20s and then suddenly got shifted into the slightly-above-average height category (without having to grow an inch!) I have to say that yeah, it’s true — short guys do get a lot of shit and scorn about what’s basically an immutable characteristic. (Unless you’re me, hah!) I feel like I have some perspective on the problem now, and it’s not like, the worst thing in the world by any stretch of the imagination. And the overcompensation and warped bitterness that it engenders in some people is both sad and reprehensible. But it’s a real thing — I mean, if I’m not mistaken there are definitely studies out there that show short gus, in particular, are more discriminated against in a number of ways (employment, attractiveness, perception of positive qualities, even life expectancy). Just another -ism to chalk up on the endless list of stupid social prejudices.

    Just remember — I have the solution by which almost any guy can grow 4″-5″ relative to average height almost instantly! Well, not instantly, might take a couple years, but it works! Also works the other way for ladies who really want to shrink. Call today, only $399.95.

    Also, fat-blaming sucks and is really stupid and a fairly clear sign of insecurity. I have nothing more to add at this juncture, except that I think it’s possible to separate the question of “blaming individuals is immature and pointless especially in a fake no-context separated from all sorts of facts about their life” from “what is the optimal public health situation for our society in general, and how can we move towards it.” And that’s exactly where the questions posed by Meowser are pointed. Oops maybe this comment should be in the other thread.

  71. Fat white man=jolly

    Fat black man = teddy bear, not sexually or otherwise threatening like a thinner black man

    Fat black woman = sassy big mama, also less sexualized than a thinner black woman, ergo less threatening

    Fat Hispanic woman = motherly and competent

    Fat white woman =not a team player because she thinks she can get away with following her own standards

    I am curious as to your take on the following groups:

    Fat Hispanic man

    Fat Asian-American man

    Fat Asian-Women

    Any other groups I have not mentioned common to major urban metropolises like NYC.

  72. Asians are supposed to all be petite and skinny, of course. So any of us who are fat are obviously horrible mutants who must be consuming even more calories than other fat people, most of it in rice, of course.

    Actually I don’t believe the study broke things down into more racial categories than black, hispanic, and “not black or hispanic.”

  73. Well, for fat Hispanic man, probably there’s a perception that he’s older or settled (versus hot-blooded young thing). Fat Asian-Americans? I’m not really sure. To the extent that the stereotype of an East Asian woman is a delicate little thing, I would think that being fat might have the effect of making some people think of them less as decorative objects, which could go either way (i.e., either offense at the lack of decoration or an attribution of greater substance).

  74. I think people hate on fat people because we live in a body-hating patriarchal society. Women are associated with nature and embodiment and a fat woman is EXTRA embodied. Just as fat men are often “feminized” – people mock overweight/ not with the sanctioned-as-acceptable-body-type men for having “man-boobs,” etc.

    AS far as the “obesity epidemic” and turning the clock back 30 years etc: What we have is a shitty industrial food epidemic, where between factory farms pumping diseased animals full of hormones, antibiotics, and their own shit and brethren;Monsanto-modified high-fructose corn syrup in everything and GMO soy, we have a nation of people eating toxic garbage for the most part.

    Why does no one speak of the need for “self control” on the part of ConAgra, Monsanto, Smithfield, Dean Foods, Tyson, and the pharmaceutical lobby?

  75. Sorry to bring this up again, but there is an explanation for why weight lifters, especially body builders, tend to be short, and it has nothing to do with any feelings of inadequacy. The shorter you are, the more leverage you have when lifting weights, the more successful you are at it, the more muscle mass you gain.

    That’s why Schwarzenegger was such a phenomenon. Here was a bodybuilder with massive amounts of muscle bulk who was also six feet tall.

  76. “As a result, I absorbed a lot of insidious messages burned into my brain that my size demarks my femininity and most importantly, my worthiness to be accepted into my class.

    Also, based on this part of what Karen said, Zuzu, think again about women of color not suffering just as much as white women based on this.

    Men of color who are striving to be accepted into the upper middle class are vigorously embracing the fat hate. They bash their heavier sisters and/or attempt to date and marry “skinny white.”

  77. I’d also imagine there is quite a bit to the speculation that self-esteem plays a pretty big role in this, since black and Hispanic women are not penalized for being fat in terms of being told they’re worthless and unattractive the same way white women are, so they’re not going to feel bad about being fat to the same degree that white women are.

    You know, I know you’re moving away from NYC, so “What part of the country are YOU living in”? isn’t precisely appropriate, but I’ll just say that I know you aren’t listening in on the conversations on the way off the basketball court and the in the back poker and domino rooms, ’cause you just don’t have that kind of time …

    But trust me. Those of us of color who are getting fat-shaming from brothers (and sisters!) just because we’re not a single-digit size — never mind not breaking 200? And notwithstanding what was said about athletic women getting the same kind of crap and the whining that the Marion Jones-Flo Jo- Cheryl Swopes types are “just too muscular”?

    Trust me. We feel bad.

    Those damn studies are WAAAAAAAAY outdated.

    And I’m just curious — was HotRodGal interviewing for a position as a LAW FIRM ASSOCIATE?!?!

  78. Isn’t obesity correlated with diabetes, heart disease, cancer, and other health problems? Wouldn’t it make sense that males would select a healthier mate? Just throwing that out there. Even as a slightly chunky woman, I’ve never questioned men’s preferences in this area – it makes sense.

    Then you are part of the problem. And a patriarchal apologist to boot. Go do some research on correlation versus causation. And while you’re at it, ponder why mate selection criteria should have ANY IMPACT WHATSOEVER on fair wages paid.

  79. Trust me. We feel bad.

    I never said you didn’t, just that the difference was probably one of degree (“to the same degree”). I can only speculate, based on what I can observe, and since I’m not privy to basketball court and domino room conversations, I can’t say that I would know what was going on there. But I do see that there are heavier black female celebrities who are considered glamorous and beautiful while there are few if any white female celebrities considered so, and I see that the heavier black women I see around are often more confident in terms of looks than the heavier white women I see around. In addition, the people making salary decisions — who are more likely than not white men — probably do not view fat black women in the same way that they do fat white women. And since the idea was raised that perhaps there was some negative effect on the salaries of fat white women based on negative self-image, I speculated that that might account for at least some of the difference in fat salary penalty between fat white women and fat black and Hispanic women.

    I wasn’t attempting to say that there was NO negativity attached to being black and fat, just that in this context, it has less of an impact on black women than it does on white women for whatever reason. I phrased that last bit badly, since I don’t know how women of color feel, but rather how they appear to an outsider.

    And I’m just curious — was HotRodGal interviewing for a position as a LAW FIRM ASSOCIATE?!?!

    Sounds like a jury consultant, imo.

  80. Someone suggested that a patch be issued to distinguish between those who are trying to lose weight and the others so you could righteously beat the right ones. Oh, it’s so hard to beat down the right people.

    – Sally

    Seriously, have they forgotten that’s exactly what happened in WW2 with the Jews? They made them wear yellow Stars of David so they could find them. Some idiot seriously suggested the same thing for fat people?

  81. Lillet, what annoys me about your points about food, high fructose corn syrup, which if you bothered to read the article on Wikipedia, you’d find it isn’t chemical waste. It’s simple corn sugars mixed with enzymes, oh so scary!

    It’s a purist or view that us humans don’t deserve to exsist, so we shouldn’t eat animals view. I’ve seen these groups that believe this also co-opt fat hatred as a reason people should turn Vegetarian too.

    Not everyone has the time or opportunity to go to the local market for organic food. Scaring them with claims of diseased animals being pumped with hormones, like we’re all eating franken-meat is similar to trying to make fat people loose weight by shaming them, or scaring them with disease claims.

    People never were destined to be naturally thin, when food is present. Period.

    Perhaps we’re getting more overweight, because we’re finally in a period of time in our lives, where we don’t have to worry where or when our next meal will come along. Have you considered that? Perhaps that people can afford to buy all food groups, so people aren’t deficient in nutritional needs.

    All the articles by non fat-biased scientists, say that being fat in most cases is healthier than being thin, despite the spin the media and drug pill manufactures want to create.

    I’m sorry, booga booga scares about the food that we eat, don’t affect me. I’ve seen what most of those animal rights groups are capable off. Terrifying small children by telling them, if their parents eat meat, they might kill their pets next. Telling innocent children about how chickens are killed in factories, and how fish vomit when they’re caught. What do you think they’re going to do other than cry for a few hours? Do you really think they’re going to pay attention to fear campaigns? Do you think their parents will buy into the idea that it’s ok for these groups to make their children fear them, which by the way is one of the ways cults get young people to join them. Instill mistrust of their parents, and people they know.

    I’m sorry this became such a long off-topic rant. It’s just, fine you want to follow PETA or whomever, that’s cool. However, drolling on and on about diseased animals and other booga booga scares, and guilt trips about how horrible humans are for exsisting, don’t belong outside of the animal activist cults.

  82. I came to post in a strange way- it’s because I’m writing a hypnosis script for myself because I want to lose weight. I want to lose weight/get in shape because I like to feel healthier and ALSO because I hate the lack of status from having more fat on my body. I admit it, I feel the social pressure. I hate that anyone thinks they are better than me because they are thinner. It’s so ridiculous!

    On the other hand, a huge BENEFIT of having more fat on my body than is socially acceptable, is that it is easier to spot those people. I have a lot of great friends who just don’t care. Also, a lot of men are interested in me who just don’t care.

    So, as you can see, I am still of two minds about losing weight. The core motivation for me is to live longer and healthier so I can be with my family for as long as possible, but I do have another level of motivation which wants to have status in society and a competing motivation which wants to thumb my nose at society for having such ridiculous and very harmful criteria for status.

    BeaTricks who was commenter #4, expressed the thumbing my nose part of myself very well:

    “…Having a rich and rewarding life while being fat is a form of opting-out. It’s a way of giving a giant middle finger to the establishment. It undermines men who enjoy the ego boost of a woman’s deference to patriarchal beauty standards. Also, it undermines women who devote a significant amount of time and effort in becoming/staying thin in order to meet the beauty standard since attaining it often comes with nifty privileges that fat women aren’t supposed to get.”

    Bugger. I have drifted into health so many times and thus my ideal weight (which is still considered plus size by the fashion industry) only to have my healthy lifestyle derailed when someone says something like, “oo, look at your waist, aren’t you getting thin!”

    I know that people aren’t thinking of the deeper cultural significance of their statements when they comment on my body, but it infuriates me because it is such crap that thinness grants status in some people’s eyes. So, I sort of unconsciously drift back up in weight as a protest against that value.

    I would like to just not care what society says and not have my weight, up or down, be in reaction to establishment values. BUT, I am a mammal and it’s normal for me to want enough status in my group to be treated with respect and to have access to resources. Bugger.

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