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Zero-Sum Games

Mr. Shakes has an excellent post over at the new digs, Shakesville, discussing why feminism benefits everyone — and why the continuing insistence of a lot of men (even progressive ones) on denigrating, attacking or maligning feminism (even as they accept individual feminists) is against their own interest. In particular, Mr. Shakes wonders why it’s so hard to accept that empowering women is not done at the expense of men, and that we’re all in this together. Indeed, when we say that patriarchy hurts men, too, we mean something like this:

One of the greatest bulwarks against men accepting the feminist movement is that they seem to think that women gaining power must necessarily dilute their own exclusive powers and status. But in so holding onto this erroneous notion, they forget that they themselves are powerless in the face of the corporate plutocracy that now weighs down so heavily upon all of us. If they could get their heads around the fact that they too are powerless and insignificant and ignored, they would stop trying to beat up on the kids they perceive to be weaker and instead acknowledge their own weakness, ally themselves with them, and move forward with them in a new movement that would grant greater freedoms for all of us. It shouldn’t be about trying to maintain some illusory advantage over others. It should be about trying to create concrete advantages for all of us.

If men were smart, they wouldn’t fight against feminism. They would embrace it for what it really is: Humanism. (And stop fretting over whether the term “feminism” is exclusory; its principles aren’t.) They would incorporate the principles of all civil rights movements and collaborate with their proponents on the genesis of a vast humanist movement. Instead of feeling threatened by or put upon by these movements, instead of feeling they somehow denigrate straight, white men’s lives or their ability to be who they are, men would apply these ideas in an effort to improve their own lives, along with everyone else’s. What we need to do is confer all the rights and privileges that these men have traditionally enjoyed upon everyone else, and then, once we’ve done that, we can start thinking about what new rights, obligations, responsibilities we can confer on everyone, in order to make our society a more egalitarian and fair place to live.

Men need to get it through their heads that they, too, are under the heel of power structures that have no interest in promoting their welfare. They must understand that the rights and privileges that they have hitherto been enjoying fall far short of the privileges they could enjoy were they to try and achieve them. The internecine warfare that occurs between women and men, people of color and white people, straights and gays, as they all squabble like schoolchildren in an attempt to gain or deny rights, is exactly what those in power want. They promote it, they foment it, they do everything they can to aggravate it, because they know that if we were all ever to get our fucking shit together, and demand that the society we all live in and contribute to should be fair and decent to everyone, then the egregious wealth and power that they enjoy would finally meet its end.

What men need to understand is that their wives, the black guy across the street, the gay guy next door, are not the only ones toiling under the weight of a patriarchal system that doesn’t benefit all men, but instead a select few who hold all the power and all the wealth in their hands, the weight of a society that rewards capital and a slavish work mentality over human dignity and the freedom of individuals to express their own interests and realize their full potential as human beings.

One of the ways that the power structure keeps us divided is to create and reinforce hierarchies within the powerless, so they spend their time fighting each other instead of those in power. One of the ways that’s done is to give some of those at the bottom the illusion that they share the wealth based on some shared characteristic. So, the patriarchy encourages white guys to vote Republican by playing on their fears of the Other — and by holding out the possibility that they, too, can join the club. I remember reading during the last election that a lot of people who had no hope of ever leaving an estate big enough to be taxed nonetheless supported the repeal of the estate tax. Why? Because they might be rich someday.

Another example of this is class anxiety, and the idea that if you get an education, you should be making more money than people who don’t have a degree. This was illustrated nicely by the reactions many people in New York had to the transit strike in late 2005 — there was an awful lot of resentment that transit workers would be making in the high five figures for driving a train. A lot of people on New York One, a local cable news channel, demonstrated in man-on-the-street interviews that their resentment about how much the members of the TWU got in comparison with themselves was directed at the blue-collar transit workers, and not at, say, their own white-collar employers. This is the kind of thing that keeps people from collective action, and keeps the people in power pulling the strings.


116 thoughts on Zero-Sum Games

  1. A lot of people on New York One, a local cable news channel, demonstrated in man-on-the-street interviews that their resentment about how much the members of the TWU got in comparison with themselves was directed at the blue-collar transit workers, and not at, say, their own white-collar employers.

    Wow. That’s a really insightful observation.

  2. I will say this: it cuts the other way also. Feminism, in the political sense, considers patriarchy to be inexorably bound up with western culture, yes? Capitalism and our political system are means by which oppression is visited on the masses, and therefore must be altered to achieve the goals of the feminist movement. Please correct me if I am in error.

    There’s the problem. Personally, (and I can’t assume I’m some sort of anomaly) I’m sympathetic towards a lot of the things you all write about here, but I can’t consider myself a feminist, as I don’t share most of your political goals. Note that I’m not concerned about losing my “priviledge”. I’m just not ready to throw out the underpinnings of western civilization just yet, and I don’t think it’s necessary to do so to achieve equality for women. Maybe you’re not concerned about the opinions of people like me, and that’s fine, it’s your party. I’m just saying you lose a lot of support because folks lump feminism in with all the other isms working against the culture, and from what you linked to that’s not entirely incorrect. That doesn’t mean there aren’t a lot of us out there, for what that’s worth.

  3. I agree with the “let’s all band together” thrust of the piece but the premise somewhat incomplete.

    This morning, Shakes asked me why it is that there are so many men, including far too many progressive men, who seem so bloody-mindedly determined to malign and attack the feminist movement, even as they are supportive of individual feminists. What is it, she wondered, that makes it feel so threatening, that elicits the urge to try to discredit it or deny its necessity?

    Men (and here, I generally mean straight men) are conditioned—by the news media, by the entertainment industry, by religious fundamentalism, by the government, and by other men—to believe that, first of all, they have a more important set of responsibilities and rights than women, and that, not only do they have these things, but that they deserve them and should do everything they can to defend them.

    That is a good characterization of some feminist critics, but not all of them.

    I don’t think of myself as an anti-feminist (though you can of course disagree) but there are certain aspects of feminism I find offputting for various reasons that have nothing to do with feeling threatened or defending my privileged state.

    Some examples:

    1. When I was in high school I gave an oral report on how Magic Johnson was not a hero (during his AIDS ordeal, yes, very classy of me) and one of the girls in the class agreed with my general point and went on to say that more people die of anorexia than AIDS anyway. That didn’t really pass the smell test. (And in fact is false, quite obviously) A lot of feminist research and numerical claims are sloppy, in this case a factoid was repeated for years by people who knew or should have known that it was false. I’ve seen a lot of studies that are performed poorly, people taking data from different studies and combining them improperly, etc.

    As a math/science person that kind of stuff annoys me, and feminism as a whole seems too permissive of that sort of sloppiness.

    2. When Jill posted her Auto-Admit thread, I was very sympathetic to her overall position. However in her write-up she made a comment that went something like “you’ll find threads decrying Jews, niggers, fags, etc – and those are the good threads!”

    That was certainly hyperbole. AutoAdmit has plenty of mundane threads about boring stuff like salary increases at a certain firm. It isn’t correct to claim that threads bashing fags and niggers are as good as it gets.

    That is in no way a defense of AutoAdmit or the horrible stuff that went on there. The overall point Jill made was quite valid, but her phrasing was over the top and besmirches every Auto Admit poster. (By implying that they are all participating in threads that bash niggers or worse)

    Note that none of these are criticisms of the basic notion that women are equal to men and deserve equal rights. However they are criticism of a problem I see often in feminism – people quick to make a (valid) point make it without much rigor.

    Compounding that problem is the fact that pointing out these issues will often get you branded an anti-feminist. (Takes this opportunity to put on flame-retardant suit)

    In the case of the AutoAdmit thread I wanted to point out that the post was a bit innacurate but didn’t because I feared I would get lumped together with the evil AutoAdmit t14 posters or be accused of off-topic trolling, even though my other posts in the thread were very supportive of Jill.

    Note that I am not saying ANY of the following:

    Feminism is bad, wrong, a big lie, etc etc. Women are hysterical, illogical, bad at math and science, etc. Feminism has a monopoly on hyperbole or arguments made somewhat loosely.

    I’m kind of a stickler and I’ll point out problems with something even when I agree with the basic point. I don’t see that as denegrating, attacking or maligning things, though I am often accused of that.

    Feminist critics come in a couple different models. Being a critic doesn’t mean you outright disagree with something. When I agree with something I like to see it expressed very well, in truly bulletproof terms. (For example I like Glenn Greenwald because he relies on a lot of facts and quotes)

    A lot of progressive men who malign the feminist movement are not attacking the basic premise that women are equal to men and should be treated as such, they are attacking a certain methodology.

    You may disagree with their criticism, but it isn’t fair to say they are trying to preserve their own privileged states or that they fear the basic feminist conceit.

    There are some progressive men that genuinely dislike the feminist movement for reasons similar to the ones I’ve given. I am not in that category – I think the feminist movement is overwhelmingly positive. That said I can still point out some rough edges and I can see why some people are genuinely opposed to feminism as a collective movement when they fixate on problems rather than all the good stuff.

    Accusing them of fearing women’s rights only makes them more suspicious of feminism, as it casts them as the enemy of all women. People cast as the enemy will play that part even if it doesn’t suit them particularly well.

  4. 1. When I was in high school I gave an oral report on how Magic Johnson was not a hero (during his AIDS ordeal, yes, very classy of me) and one of the girls in the class agreed with my general point and went on to say that more people die of anorexia than AIDS anyway. That didn’t really pass the smell test. (And in fact is false, quite obviously) A lot of feminist research and numerical claims are sloppy, in this case a factoid was repeated for years by people who knew or should have known that it was false. I’ve seen a lot of studies that are performed poorly, people taking data from different studies and combining them improperly, etc.

    I’m not sure an anecdote about an isolated debate (in high school of all places) counts as a good example of feminism gone awry. For someone who’s into statistics, you aren’t really providing good evidence for your claim about feminist research being poor. Most of the claims I’ve seen on this blog and other feminist blogs have been very sufficiently backed by scientific studies and other forms of research.

  5. “Accusing them of fearing women’s rights only makes them more suspicious of feminism, as it casts them as the enemy of all women.”

    So, in other words this is yet another round of “Do it our way or we’ll stop supporting you – then you’ll fail fail fail”

    Yeah. That’s not an privledge complex at all.

    Perhaps, if they stopped trying to be offended by feminism, they’d see that if they individually are not “like that”, then perhaps the message isn’t directed at them.

    Just a thought.

  6. Um, “people quick to make a (valid) point make it without much rigor.” is pretty much true across the whole spectrum of humanity, not just for feminists. Mainly because we’re not all formally trained in debate. We – humans – do the best we can to argue for what we feel strongly about, whether it’s feminism or religion or even just our interpretation of a picture. We don’t always have evidence to work with (Magic Johnson revealed he had AIDS in 1991, so those high school girls couldn’t exactly google for studies on mortality of AIDS patients and anorexics), we don’t always use the best or the most logical arguments.

    You can see the same sort of hyperbole and lack of research pretty much anywhere. And really, I don’t think feminism is unique in having these traits, or “worse” than any other movement/group/collective.

  7. Men (and here, I generally mean straight men) are conditioned

    I occasionally say that a vagina is not a “get out of the patriarchy free card,” and I am going to extend that to say the gay gene* is not a “get out of the patriarchy free card” either. I wouldn’t assume that gay men, or black men, or any marginalized class can see through societal conditioning just because it doesn’t apply to them or benefit them. There is nothing about being gay which automatically grants the gay person the remarkable insight that women are human.

    *yeah, I know, the gay gene is still basically speculation at this point. I needed something concrete to stick in a pithy phrase.

  8. One of the greatest bulwarks against men accepting the feminist movement is that they seem to think that women gaining power must necessarily dilute their own exclusive powers and status. But in so holding onto this erroneous notion, they forget that they themselves are powerless […]

    i’m not sure i see how this is a valid argument. i may be a powerless wage-slave peon of The Man, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that i can happily relinquish what little power my male privilege may give me and not thereby lose anything.

    life may not be a zero-sum game, but pointing out that my own personal accounts are already reading zero is not a logical way to prove it so.

  9. 1. When I was in high school I gave an oral report on how Magic Johnson was not a hero (during his AIDS ordeal, yes, very classy of me) and one of the girls in the class agreed with my general point and went on to say that more people die of anorexia than AIDS anyway.

    YES! At fucking last, I’ve been waiting to see if there was a non-racist variety on the “A black mcguffin was once an idiot and therefore I can generalise that out to a totally non-homogenous group and not be a complete stereotyping racist assbag” story, and you just did one, woohoo!

    Oh and can I be first to point out to all the men in the audience: It’s not about you, your fee-fees or whether a woman was mean to you once upon a time in a far far land, civil rights are not an optional extra for the politics of people who aren’t evil fuckstains, and if you have trouble with that formulation please feel free to vote for Lieberman and McCain even more than you undoubtably already were.

  10. Remember: to be a man is to be the antithesis of a woman. Men are human and good so women must not be. This glorious logic is ruthlessly reinforced with femaleness being universally used as the ultimate slur against men (see: “bitch”). So, by preaching for basic human rights, men immediately sense it as an attack on par with a cruel injustice against them because now women are also human, which profoundly degrades men by stripping them of the basis of the supreme title “man.” Seriously. Even the lowliest man believes he inherently matters simply because, at least, he wasn’t born a girl.

  11. I will say this: it cuts the other way also. Feminism, in the political sense, considers patriarchy to be inexorably bound up with western culture, yes? Capitalism and our political system are means by which oppression is visited on the masses, and therefore must be altered to achieve the goals of the feminist movement. Please correct me if I am in error.

    You’re in error. Unless you’re thinking of Marxist feminism, of which I am only passingly familiar.

    Look, patriarchy takes many forms. It’s all over the damn place. Any political or economic system we have right now arose from patriarchy. Even utopian socialism, if put in place by people raised in a patriarchy, will wind up reflecting patriarchal values.

    Feminism in general is less concerned with overthrow than reform at this point.

  12. Feminism in general is less concerned with overthrow than reform at this point.

    I was sort of pondering a similar comment as Henry’s, so I’m glad this issue was raised. While there are lots of types of feminism, the particular brand that Mr. Shakes seems to be of a distinctly Marxist bent–N.B., while I’m not very familiar with Marxist Feminism either, I am fairly familiar with Marxism.

    Mr. Shakes’ general thesis seems to be that once (straight, white) men realize that they need to stop oppressing women, ethnic and religious minorities, LGBTs, and other groups typically considered disenfranchised, they can all band together and liquidate the real oppressors–the capitalists.

    For that reason, I don’t know that Mr. Shakes’ manifesto should be held up as an example as to why men should become feminists. It’s a hard sell that the font of all oppression is “capitalist plutocrats.”

  13. The estate tax is double taxation. It taxes money that’s already been taxed. I would suppose many people who oppose it, oppose it on those grounds. Just because something doesn’t apply to you and maybe never will, doesn’t mean you can’t object on principle.

    Assuming that people vote to repeal the estate tax because someday they might be rich – that stuck me as a kinda demeaning and assumptive thing to say.

  14. I like the quoted text – but I think the comments on capital are flippant.

    There are a lot of people talking about capital nowadays – many of them very intelligent and well-meaning individuals, but too many of them also refuse to engage the reality of modern economics.

    Like zuzu, I am only passingly familiar with Marxist feminism. I tried to learn about it at university, but I was generally turned off by the tunnel-vision.

  15. “Liquidate”?

    It’s a common phrasing in Marxist rhetoric. Liquidate the bourgeois capitalists, liquidate the capitalist system, liquidate that capitalist and add some yogurt and he’ll make a delicious smoothie, etc.

  16. I’m not so turned off by Mr. Shakes’ comments re: capital. It’s true that feminism need not (and usually does not) equal Marxism, but I think to investigate how the patriarchy is bolstered in various ways (including economics) is a healthy line of questioning.

  17. lizriz, I think this whole talking point about “double taxation” is rhetoric without substance. The same dollar is taxed many times as it passes from hand to hand. When I make my pay, it gets taxed as income, and then when I spend it I pay sales and excise taxes out of it. When I make capital gains I get taxed on them, and if I have a whole shitload of wealth and try to give it to someone else (say, my offspring), I get taxed on it then. Same dollar, taxed both when it enters and when it leaves my hands. In short, “double taxation” is a soundbite, not an argument.

  18. It taxes money that’s already been taxed.

    All money has already been taxed.

    If I work in retail, I pay taxes on money my employer gave me. My employer paid taxes on that money before giving it to me. The people who pay sales tax paid tax on that money before giving it to my employer. Now I’m going to go out and buy stuff with it, and I’ll pay sales tax. If I buy a house with it, then I’ll pay property tax on that house. If I buy a car, I’ll pay car tax (registration fees) and then tax on the gasoline I fill that car with.

    It’s the transaction that’s taxed, not the money per se. So this is a nonsensical argument.

    As for the basic argument about men and feminism — you cannot argue that it isn’t a zero-sum game without talking about the specific ways in which women *benefit* from sexism and men do not. I realize I stray into MRA territory here, but I’ve long believed there are many kinds of power, and whatever power you don’t have is what you think you want. Over and over I see men complain about being treated as “success objects”, objectified for the size of their wallet, and it’s simply incontrovertible that men don’t care whether or not a woman is rich before they decide to date her. Feminism could point out that only women who feel confident in their ability to support themselves can choose a man on any *other* basis than “can he support me”. I see men bitching about the fact that women don’t want as much sex as men do. Feminism could point out that the more control a woman has over her own reproduction, the more she will be willing to have sex; the less fear she has of being raped, the more likely she will be willing to have sex; the less fear she has of being called a “slut” and generally looked down on and moralized at for having sex, the more willing she will be to have sex. And when men point out that women at least have the option of staying home with their kids and not being soulless corporate drones, we should not be extolling the virtues of being a soulless corporate drone and how much we all wish we could be one even if we have kids, but point out that feminism works toward letting men stay home with kids if he and the woman he’s with want, that policies to end discrimination against “mothers” in the workforce work just as well for fathers, and that better childcare for everyone helps women to work harder to provide for their families so men don’t have to work as hard and can spend more time with the kids.

    It doesn’t have to be about “work together with us to overthrow the capitalist patriarchy!”; there are actually many specific areas in which the extreme gender-role codification of a patriarchy makes problems for men.

  19. I’m not sure an anecdote about an isolated debate (in high school of all places) counts as a good example of feminism gone awry. For someone who’s into statistics, you aren’t really providing good evidence for your claim about feminist research being poor.

    That is certainly true. I’m not trying to convince you that these are valid objections. I’m just trying to say that these are objections that some people have that have nothing to do with being afraid of women’s rights or wanting to defend their own privilege. Whether or not these are valid criticisms is not something I want to argue here, I’m just arguing they come from a valid place.

    If I wanted to convince you that these are serious problems then yes I would have to do better than personal anecdote, but that isn’t my point.

    YES! At fucking last, I’ve been waiting to see if there was a non-racist variety on the “A black mcguffin was once an idiot and therefore I can generalise that out to a totally non-homogenous group and not be a complete stereotyping racist assbag” story, and you just did one, woohoo!

    This is one of the things I talked about. Now you gleefully revel in the fact that I’ve revealed my “true colors” or something like that. Break out the party hats.

    Oh and can I be first to point out to all the men in the audience: It’s not about you

    Actually, in this case it is largely about men. That was part of the point of the original piece.

    It’s kind of silly to say that men’s input on the subject is off-topic given that the subject is progressive men. (You have to read the original article for that, the Zuzu’s quote begins a bit after that)

  20. Compounding that problem is the fact that pointing out these issues will often get you branded an anti-feminist. (Takes this opportunity to put on flame-retardant suit)

    Happens to me frequently too. 😉

  21. “It’s not about you, your fee-fees or whether a woman was mean to you once upon a time in a far far land, civil rights are not an optional extra for the politics of people who aren’t evil fuckstains, and if you have trouble with that formulation please feel free to vote for Lieberman and McCain even more than you undoubtably already were.”

    Does anyone find this, directed at someone who described the feminist movement as “overwhelmingly positive”, a bit troubling? Maybe I am very wrong, but from reading his (I assume he’s a man?) comment I find it highly unlikely that Random Observer 3 is a big McCain or Lieberman supporter. He probably agrees more than he disagrees with the politics of the posters and commenters here. The harsh response that someone with mostly feminist, progressive politics, but who may not have read much theory or express themselves ideally recieves compared to say the tentative respect for Marxism is kind of troubling. It should e said more often but Marxism, feminist or otherwise, is not a practical program (I suppose this could be debated), and a complete political non-starter currently in the US (this not so much).

  22. It’s a hard sell that the font of all oppression is “capitalist plutocrats.”

    Really? Put “aristocracy” in there instead (which is what we’re heading for, what with removing all taxation on inheritances, lowering the tax on capital gains for private individuals to minuscule amounts, etc) and see if that still pushes your buttons.

  23. That was certainly hyperbole…

    That is in no way a defense of AutoAdmit or the horrible stuff that went on there. The overall point Jill made was quite valid, but her phrasing was over the top and besmirches every Auto Admit poster.

    Yes, it was hyperbole. I think Jill used it very deliberately to combat the hyperbole of the AutoAdmit people who insisted that everything over there was good clean fun and anyone who objected was too thin-skinned.

    I know it’s automatic to want to defend a group that you yourself are a part of and participate in, but saying, “But there are good people at AutoAdmit, too!” makes it look like you’re condoning what the bad people were doing, because you ignored them rather than confronting them. It’s like the people who insist that Kathy Sierra is a whiner because she didn’t like getting explicit death threats that included her home address and social security number: you’re minimizing the problem to defend your own turf.

    Which is, um, kinda what Mr. Shakes is going on about, yes?

  24. Really? Put “aristocracy” in there instead (which is what we’re heading for, what with removing all taxation on inheritances, lowering the tax on capital gains for private individuals to minuscule amounts, etc) and see if that still pushes your buttons.

    I agree that if you change “capitalist plutocracy” to “aristocracy,” Mr. Shakes’ argument changes quite a bit. But I imagine he used the words “capitalist plutocracy” for, you know, a reason–because that’s what he believes.

    But no, it’s not a hard sell that the font of all oppression is an aristocracy of some sort. The question is whether or not it’s either capitalist or predicated on wealth.

  25. 1. When I was in high school I gave an oral report on how Magic Johnson was not a hero (during his AIDS ordeal, yes, very classy of me) and one of the girls in the class agreed with my general point and went on to say that more people die of anorexia than AIDS anyway. That didn’t really pass the smell test. (And in fact is false, quite obviously) A lot of feminist research and numerical claims are sloppy, in this case a factoid was repeated for years by people who knew or should have known that it was false. I’ve seen a lot of studies that are performed poorly, people taking data from different studies and combining them improperly, etc.

    I missed where the woman self-identified as a feminists before saying this or indicated in some way this was a feminist idea. Can you explain why this is even an example of feminist thought, much less feminist ideology? I obviously missed the “AIDS isn’t as bad as you think” branch of feminism exemplified in the High School set.

    Factoids are repeated all the time that are false. Yes, correcting them is good, but that’s often not as easy as one might think; there is a reason there’s the saying: “There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.”

    And technically, no one has ever died of AIDS. AIDS compromises the immune system so that a person dies of another disease. Some people have died of the heart failure associated with and directly caused by anorexia nervosa. Therefore, by DEFINITION, more people have died of anorexia nervosa than AIDS, however more people have died because they had an AIDS compromised immune system than have died of anorexia nervosa.

    See above note about lies, damn lies, and statistics.

    That is in no way a defense of AutoAdmit or the horrible stuff that went on there. The overall point Jill made was quite valid, but her phrasing was over the top and besmirches every Auto Admit poster. (By implying that they are all participating in threads that bash niggers or worse)

    And this is not at all like stating, for example, that one female in a high school class made an arguably false implication about AIDS is a clear indication of flaws in the feminist movement…

    Yes, people besmirch people when they’re debating them. It’s call an ad hominem fallacy, and it’s incredibly popular. Poisoning the well is equally popular, and you can see it a few posts later in the statement about the probable political position of Random Observer 3 (ironic name). Both are bad debate, are bad logic, and for those of us with a taste for basing things on rationality and not emotion – a bit of a turnoff.

    However, claiming that this is a valid reason to discount one social movement and not EQUALLY APPLYING said standard to all other social movements is an indication of an underlying reason to want to discount social movement A and not social movement B. I am not saying that is the case here, I am noting it as one of the reasons why individuals in a given social movement discount the opinions of people who disagree with them for characteristics found in most or all social movements.

    Personally, I think men have something to lose from feminism, and that’s why so many of them object to it. Women could be considered a built in punching-doll, an eternal scapegoat that no one (important) will blame you for punching. People like to have people to blame. In the “oppression wars” of who is more oppressed by whom there is one consistent – there is a psychological need for ego-reinforcement served by having someone else to turn your pain, rage, and fear onto. It is much harder to accept all the things you don’t like in yourself as part of yourself then to push them onto the next person to walk by, all unsuspecting.

    No one is free from this impulse.

    Some people turn this impulse into a popular radio show, in fact.

    So yeah, I think guys have something to lose. I think women do to, if we actually pull this off; living in a world where you have to own your own feelings and being is you, even when you don’t like it, is HARD.

    I personally think there’s more to gain than what may be lost, but even the loss of something you don’t like but is familiar is a LOSS. Focus on what you gain – yes, yes, a thousand times yes – but don’t deny people a place to mourn the loss, even if they’re mourning something horrible.

  26. That is certainly true. I’m not trying to convince you that these are valid objections. I’m just trying to say that these are objections that some people have that have nothing to do with being afraid of women’s rights or wanting to defend their own privilege. Whether or not these are valid criticisms is not something I want to argue here, I’m just arguing they come from a valid place.

    If one is generalizing from a specific to such an unwarranted degree, how does that “come from a valid place?” Look, people do stupid shit and believe stupid things relatively frequently. If one then takes that and generalizes it to a varied group, on what basis are they doing that? Can you be quite sure that it doesn’t come from a, perhaps unrecognized, prejudice against or fear of the group and/or its objectives? I’m not so sure that’s a correct assumption. On what basis are you making it? What is this “valid place” of which you speak?

  27. A lot of people don’t really like websites that do heavy moderation of comments. I am one of those people, I have a natural distrust for that sort of thing. Feminist websites often have fairly strict moderation policies.

    I think I can say that heavy moderation is an aspect of (online) feminism that rubs me the wrong way without hating women or being against women’s rights. That is an objection that has nothing to do with the basic principles of feminism and it just a criticism of typical operating procedure.

    My point is that those sorts of criticisms, right or wrong, are not the same as being against women’s rights.

    The idea that I am a McCain/Lieberman supporter is laughably absurd by the way. That is an absolutely wrong categorization.

    The propensity of some people to pick up on some minor point and use that to label and dismiss is very annoying. However I won’t pretend that all feminists do that or that that tendancy makes feminism as a whole invalid. It’s just something that happens too often.

  28. Re: RO’s first post.
    Why on earth didn’t you point out a specific example of this tendency to sloppy thinking on the part of feminists, say from this site?
    Your being unable to “get” hyperbole doesn’t count, I’m afraid. It becomes a little harder to take you seriously when I think of your interpreting that sentence literally; very few people of good faith who are experienced in how human beings communicate would do that.
    Nor do the failings of high school debaters count. You think most high school debaters are experts on their subjects? The sheer weakness of the examples you’ve tend to undermine your point considerably. It makes it sound like you came to the topic with a very common patriarchal stereotype in yoru mind, and you are (over) stretching to prove it true.

    Oh, HOLD ON A DAMN SECOND MISTER. I just read your second post. Someone else called you on the weakness of your examples and you backed off all “I’m not trying to convince you that these are valid objections. I’m just trying to say that these are objections that some people have.”
    But you said flat out:
    A lot of feminist research and numerical claims are sloppy…. I’ve seen a lot of studies that are performed poorly, people taking data from different studies and combining them improperly, etc.
    …feminism as a whole seems too permissive of that sort of sloppiness.

    You just can’t make assertions like that without backing them up with SOMETHING better than a high school anecdote and your own impaired sense of irony.

    And you’re going to accuse everyone here of being “irrational” in 3..2..1… Somebody really needs to make a Troll BIngo.

  29. I think I can say that heavy moderation is an aspect of (online) feminism that rubs me the wrong way without hating women or being against women’s rights. That is an objection that has nothing to do with the basic principles of feminism and it just a criticism of typical operating procedure.

    What? Heavy comment moderation isn’t an “aspect of feminism,” online or otherwise. There is nothing about feminism that calls for heavy moderation of comments, nor is that one of its objectives. What you dislike is the practice of certain feminists (as well as the practice of many non-feminists). That is not the same thing as feminism, a large and varied movement with goals totally unrelated to comment moderation of any form.

    I also question the size of your sample for drawing this conclusion, Mr. Math/Science Person. Methodology, please?

  30. The propensity of some people to pick up on some minor point and use that to label and dismiss is very annoying.

    BTW, the irony here is quite awe-inspiring.

  31. I think I can say that heavy moderation is an aspect of (online) feminism that rubs me the wrong way without hating women or being against women’s rights. That is an objection that has nothing to do with the basic principles of feminism and it just a criticism of typical operating procedure.

    Just out of curiosity, do you have any idea why feminist websites have such heavy moderation, or are you just assuming it’s for political reasons?

    Hint: it’s the death threats, not the politics. And when you let trolls take over your comments section to the point where it’s all death threats and personal attacks without any actual discussion, there’s no point anymore.

  32. it’s simply incontrovertible that men don’t care whether or not a woman is rich before they decide to date her
    Actually, it’s very controvertible. Highly educated, wealthy women are much more likely to be married these days– can’t find the stats offhand tho. And definitely in my own experience a lot of guys are attracted to the mannerisms and forms of dress that signify wealth: and contempuous of similar indicators of working-classness in women; this kind of social signalling can be quite local so this is difficult to quantify, but it’s very easy to observe.
    (oh, an actually quantifiable data point on this: just TRY telling me that the hate and contempt piled on fat women has no class element to it.)

    But I loved the rest of your post Alara.

  33. ‘just TRY telling me that the hate and contempt piled on fat women has no class element to it.”

    And race.

    *

    On the top of moderation: Alas’s feminist and pro-feminist-only threads come to mind as an example of the kind of thing R03 seems to be talking about.

    I still think they’re a good idea; it’s nice not to have to explain to JerkYZ that, yes, indeed, women can be raped by men they’ve said yes to in the past, or whatever other shiny bugaboo JerkYZ has seized on.

  34. Personally, I think men have something to lose from feminism, and that’s why so many of them object to it.

    Actually most feminist theories on the rape culture start off from the clear position that the rape culture emerges as a result of the subtle abuses – both psychological and physical – of men, and that that leads to men raping and assaulting women in a clear case of shit rolling down hill.

    In fact, most of the alleged male privelages of a patriarchal society largely consist of allowing men who are being screwed over by other men to take out their frustrations on women.

    However, it’s still amazing how many men seem to be in deeply committed relationships to that cycle of abuse anyway.

    Not that there’s anything wrong with enjoying being dominated by other men of course, indeed there’s whole clubs dedicated to such pursuits.

    [insert republican national convention joke here]

    Men have a shit load to gain from overthrowing the patriarchy – and all they have to do is give up the patriarchal notion that they excrete sunshine and are the natural lords of all creation.

    [insert Kos joke here]

  35. A lot of people don’t really like websites that do heavy moderation of comments. I am one of those people, I have a natural distrust for that sort of thing. Feminist websites often have fairly strict moderation policies.

    I think I can say that heavy moderation is an aspect of (online) feminism that rubs me the wrong way without hating women or being against women’s rights. That is an objection that has nothing to do with the basic principles of feminism and it just a criticism of typical operating procedure.

    That’s swell.

    When you can figure out how to get people to stop posting comments about slicing open our throats and fucking the holes, you can complain about the moderation policy. Mmmkay?

  36. When you can figure out how to get people to stop posting comments about slicing open our throats and fucking the holes, you can complain about the moderation policy. Mmmkay?

    But, zuzu, you’re just oversensitiveif you’re upset by things like that! I’m sure that RM3 got called an asshole on a thread one time, and that was exactly the same thing!

    :-p

  37. A lot of people don’t really like websites that do heavy moderation of comments.

    People who don’t like “heavy moderation” are really people who don’t like being moderated when they have something unproductive to say. “Issue” blogs and forums ideally should have a free hand for moderation as it is important for such discussions to stay on topic and to avoid endless discussions going over the basics of the issue for whoever stumbled upon the site today and is outraged, disturbed, amused, or befuddled by its existance. I’ve seen a lot of activism blogs get completely useless thanks to overly forgiving moderation. This isn’t a blog to discuss anti-feminism. If someone wants to discuss that, they can set up their own space to do so. Expecting activists to provide space to be attacked is entirely unfair.

    But, putting all of that aside, listing “heavy moderation” as the reason you are “rubbed the wrong way” by feminism is like arresting someone only for resisting arrest. You suggest this is a criticism of opperations, but really it is a defense of anti-feminism. Why else object to the moderation?

    To your other complaints, your disagreement with Jill’s “hyperbole” about AutoAdmit is nit-picking at best and misrepresentative of the original remark at worse. Indeed, it seems to imply a double standard where feminists who criticisize others have to fall all over themselves qualifying their remarks with any concievable exception instead of being free to make big picture remarks. Meanwhile, Critics of feminism are free to make broad and sweeping generalizations without any true basis in reality. Such as your suggestion that feminism has a disregard for “facts”.

    Certainly, some who call themselves feminists have shown a fast and loose relationship with factual evidence. This is true of any ideology, however. Some girl doing a high school oral report is not proof of a systemic problem. Indeed, it is quite precisely the worst evidence you could offer. Some feminists have overstated deaths related to anorexia. There is no dispute about this. But likewise, anti-feminists far more habitually have understated the impact of anorexia, minimizing it severely. In my observation, this disregard for facts is far more frequently stated than feminists who overstate the risks. But you focus only on the mis-steps of some feminists, and you translate them into institutional failings.

    Men don’t have anything to lose from feminism. Nothing we fairly had to begin with, anyway. Allowing ourselves to be dominated by gender stereotypes to maintain an illusion of power is nothing for males to be proud of. Equality should not be a challenge to ourselves.

  38. The question of whether relative privilege within patriarchy is a zero-sum game is, too simple a question. Game theory has been dealing with this for a long time. Patriarchy is a version of the “prisoner’s dilemma”.

    In the classic PD, two prisoners are being investigated for a crime. If they “cooperate” with each other by refusing to talk, they each get a short sentence, but if one “defects,” he goes free and the other gets a short sentence. If both defect, they both serve long terms.

    In one iteration, with no idea how the other player will play, the dominant strategy is to defect. However, if the game is played successively, a pattern of cooperation can produce a stable equilibrium that is better for everybody on the whole than any other state. Or the sides can defect successively and launch a cycle of mutual defection, producing the worst overall outcome.

    So there’s the theoretical construct: in an oppressive system, defecting to the side of oppressors can be an absolute benefit, or it can be a cycle of mutual loss and recrimination. Working with the other players can be a stable equilibrium where everybody gains, or it can be a sucker’s play.

    How it plays out in the real world depends on the details: the values that get assigned to defection and cooperation. The outcomes of the moves in the game are highly sensitive to these. First, it can change the entire complexion of the game. A variant of prisoner’s dilemma where cooperation gets both prisoners their freedom but defecting gets the short sentence is (I believe; some game theory mathematician save me from my limited grasp here) strictly dominated (i.e. there is one winning strategy) by cooperation. So, if post-patriarchy is better for men, on the whole, than the relative advantage of being a man within patriarchy, then feminism is the best strategy in all cases. That’s how I really think it is for most men.

    Second, even if there is a relative benefit to defecting over cooperating, in the real world the costs and benefits are not stable or equal, so that for example queer men don’t get the same benefit of defection to the oppressor (at least in the long run) that het men do, so there is relatively more incentive for them to oppose patriarchy than for het men — and while that’s not a uniform strategy, it is what we see empirically.

  39. On the actual subject of this post, I think that men resisting feminism is like children resisting growing up: yes, they lose something, and they gain something, and the gain is plainly greater than the loss, but the transition hurts.
    In fact it’s pretty much exactly like becoming an adult: what you’re giving up is your inflated sense of self importance and the idea that the world revolves around you, and that other people owe you stuff. What you gain is an enhanced capacity to relate to other people, and a loss of the perpetual sense of grievance that comes with the world failing to sufficiently cater to your needs. And it doesn’t in fact look like a very enticing trade to someone stuck in the inflated-ego phase of development, even though it’s one that will make them happier.

    Patriarchy is kind of like that episode of the Twilight Zone where a six year old has godlike power*: obviously the power doesn’t make him happy, and power you haven’t earned can’t really make anyone happy, but wouldn’t he squall if he had to give it up?
    *it occurs to me that the Bush administration may be an equally good simile/microcosm

    Anyway, I obviously wouldn’t actually try and win any men over to feminism using this argument– Alara’s comment seems like the best kind of argument to use for those purposes.

  40. “One of the greatest bulwarks against men accepting the feminist movement is that they seem to think that women gaining power must necessarily dilute their own exclusive powers and status.”

    That is what feminism does, because it means that men can no longer treat women as property. Not much more dilution than that.

    It really is about power and privilege. And the issues can only be understood if one accepts that basic truth.

    I’m a 58 year old man. I’ve watched this whole feminist thing evolve and listened to what men say about it. I hear the fear at the loss of privilege and the pissed-off attitude so many guys get when they have to actually compete with a woman for a promotion. I’ve watched how hard women fight against the idea that men want to hold onto the power our society confers to the male. Women don’t want to hear that this is about power, from the male perspective. Overwhelmingly, y’all reject the concept.

  41. heh, Thomas, I’ve often thought that game theory has a lot to offer feminist analysis. I’ve often wished that people would look at stuff like (social pressure to wear) lipstick and high heels, for example, as a negative equilibrium; the more people do it, the higher the cost of not doing it becomes, and that’s where the oppression comes in: but since patriarchy-compliance is usually the rational strategy, you can’t condemn any individial woman for doing it; just accept that she’s doing the absolute best she can do for herself within the conditions of the game and work to change said conditions. That way you can accept it’s problematic without oppribium and moral judgements being flung.

    But I think you’re thinking way too macro with your analysis. No rational person’s going to condition their behaviour on what’ll happen in the “post patriarchy” (sadly that’s a FAR distant future.) If you think about individual interactions in which any individual can choose to play a feminist or non-feminist strategy, you can come up with some interesting results. Like, if I was even a little better at drawing up models, I could show that it’s in the best interests of the most sexually and personally undesirable men to be anti-feminist, but it’s in the best interests of most other men to be feminist (except for the ones at the very top of the sexual-desirability hierarchy.) Dammit. I seriously wish my concentration span could cope better with math– I used to be really good at it, but I have ADD and started to suck at it as soon as things got too complicated to intuit.

  42. This is not about power; this is about basic human rights. I don’t want power, which has a strong and implicit connotation with domination. I need society to accept the fact that I am a human being. When men talk about a power struggle it completely distorts, if not trivializes, the severe and absurd injustice at the core.

  43. I hear the fear at the loss of privilege and the pissed-off attitude so many guys get when they have to actually compete with a woman for a promotion. I’ve watched how hard women fight against the idea that men want to hold onto the power our society confers to the male. Women don’t want to hear that this is about power, from the male perspective. Overwhelmingly, y’all reject the concept.

    We don’t reject the concept than men currently hold power that they’re reluctant to give up even for the promise of something better; we know perfectly well that (some) men relish the power they have over women.

    What we reject is the notion that men having power over women — even women they don’t know — is in any way right or natural.

  44. When I make my pay, it gets taxed as income, and then when I spend it I pay sales and excise taxes out of it

    1) by the feds, 2) by the state. not double taxation. state income tax and now sales tax are deductible for the purpose of determining federal taxable income levels, so no double taxation there, either.

    When I make capital gains I get taxed on them,

    on the capital gains, but not on the principle. again, not double taxation.

    and if I have a whole shitload of wealth and try to give it to someone else (say, my offspring), I get taxed on it then.

    gift taxes are also bullshit and bogus and should also be repealed.

    If I work in retail, I pay taxes on money my employer gave me. My employer paid taxes on that money before giving it to me.

    ah, no. payroll is not profit. no double taxation here.

    The people who pay sales tax paid tax on that money before giving it to my employer.

    covered above, not double taxation

    Now I’m going to go out and buy stuff with it, and I’ll pay sales tax.

    This doesn’t really follow, but I assume you are talking about your wages. again,covered above, not double taxation.

    If I buy a house with it, then I’ll pay property tax on that house. If I buy a car, I’ll pay car tax (registration fees) and then

    these are possessions, not money, and the taxes go to county and state, not the feds. no double taxation.

    tax on the gasoline I fill that car with.

    sales tax, already covered.

    All money has already been taxed is a sound bite.

  45. I’ve watched how hard women fight against the idea that men want to hold onto the power our society confers to the male. Women don’t want to hear that this is about power, from the male perspective. Overwhelmingly, y’all reject the concept.

    You missed the part where it was a clueless guy — you know, a male, as you call them — who wrote the silly post in question.

    Men don’t have anything to lose from feminism. Nothing we fairly had to begin with, anyway.

    Yeah, and these are two totally and utterly different assertions. The second is true, the first is complete bs. Men have a lot to lose from feminism. Most of it is power over women. We are trying really hard to take that power away from them. If non-feminist men aren’t at least a little threatened by feminism, either they aren’t paying attention, or feminists aren’t doing a very good job.

  46. I think this is fascinating–zak brings up the power argument, Miller says it isn’t about power, and Mnemosyne says it is but states that it has nothing to do with what is “right or natural.”

    I’m kind of with zak on this one, and here is why. Rights only exist to the extent that others respect them. Even if *you* (like Miller) do not wish to exercise power, if other people do so, it needs to be checked. By other people with power. Otherwise the whole rights regime crashes.

    If I have a right to bodily integrity, but I don’t object when I am groped, if I or no one else creates repercussions for the groper–than the right may as well not exist. We are taking power away from people. Power to do things they have no right to do; power to invade our rights. I think that power can only be met with power.

    I would be interested in hearing what Miller thinks about how to address rights violation without using power over others–because it is entirely possible that I am missing a piece of the puzzle from my perspective.

  47. I am not complaining about moderation on this site. What I am saying is that a complaint about moderation, as an example, is not a rejection of the core principles of feminism.

    I explicitly said it but I’ll do so again. My point here is NOT NOT NOT to bring up a list of complaints and try to argue that these things are really important, huge problems, or even valid. (That is a different discussion) As I already stated, these complaints are minor and don’t invalidate feminism in any way.

    My point is that that *sort* of complaint does not stem from men wanting to protect their privleged status or wanting to deny rights for women. At least, not always. (Clearly it does at least some of the time)

    In my view, a lot of progressive men who are disgruntled with feminism are not rejecting the core principles. (Though again some certainly are)

    What? Heavy comment moderation isn’t an “aspect of feminism,” online or otherwise. There is nothing about feminism that calls for heavy moderation of comments, nor is that one of its objectives. What you dislike is the practice of certain feminists (as well as the practice of many non-feminists).

    That is really my point. A criticism of heavy moderation is not a criticism of the basic tenets of feminism. A lot of progressive men who malign feminism are attacking what they see as some bad operating procedures, rather than the central philosophy.

    That is why you have this oddity of progressive men (and women) that support individual feminists and claim to supports women’s rights but don’t call themselves feminists or even actively malign feminism. The original piece says this is because they really don’t support women’s rights – I don’t think that is a good explanation.

    The reason some progressives can malign feminism while saying they support women’s rights is that they view feminism and supporting women’s rights as two distinct concepts, where feminism is not simply supporting women’s rights but also includes other attitudes, trends towards certain behaviors, etc.

  48. Kali, I thought about the short-term/long-term issue as soon as I posted that. There are short-term rewards and then “ATR” rewards. The latter are problematic because the timespan is both long and indeterminate. The ATR rewards are overwhelming — but people have a built-in short-term bias so strong that in very religious societies even those who actually think they are invoking eternal torment will commit mortal sin for short term reasons. (As an aside, my thought is that the next great leap in human thinking will come from behavioral economics studying the precise degrees and mechanisms of people’s irrational biases). So, the part of the situation where feminism is Pareto-optimal (best gross utility overall) is, so to speak, “over the horizon.”

    Which means the costs and benefits have to be analyzed as a classic iterative PD, with cooperation weighed against the benefits of defection to the side of the patriarchy.

    This is a PhD dissertation topic for someone. Someone being a feminist game theorist.

  49. This obviously isn’t a post about estate taxes, so I tried to keep my comments brief. I meant the focus of my comment to be that there are people who oppose estate taxes for well thought-out reasons, whether they themselves will ever pay them or not. I think it’s a little assumptive and derogatory to say that unwealthy people who are against estate taxes haven’t given it more thought than “I might be rich someday.”

  50. where feminism is not simply supporting women’s rights but also includes other attitudes, trends towards certain behaviors, etc.

    So we have women’s rights and then we have the specter of the shrill and hairy legged cutting off one breast and ritually sacrificing male children? Please. What’s really going on here is a “I support women’s rights in theory, but honestly, it doesn’t affect me, so there’s no need to get off my ass and do something unless everyone makes me the center of the universe.”

    On our troll bingo cards around here, we call this concern trolling.

  51. A criticism of heavy moderation is not a criticism of the basic tenets of feminism. A lot of progressive men who malign feminism are attacking what they see as some bad operating procedures, rather than the central philosophy.

    Anyone who dismisses a philosophy over “bad operating procedures” on the internet isn’t particularly interested in philosophy. They’re interested in imposing their viewpoint on people, which is why they hate moderation so much.

    Again, have you ever pointed out to those guys that you know who hate feminists because of heavy moderation that the reason comments are so heavily moderated is because of the death threats that feminist bloggers receive every day? Or do they just not care?

  52. I know it’s automatic to want to defend a group that you yourself are a part of and participate in, but saying, “But there are good people at AutoAdmit, too!” makes it look like you’re condoning what the bad people were doing, because you ignored them rather than confronting them

    But see, I’m not part of the AutoAdmit group, I had never even heard of it before. And I didn’t condone the behavior of the bad guys there, I attacked it. If the ONLY thing I posted was “hey, AA isn’t that bad!” then yeah, that is sort of condoning by omission.

  53. I think Mr. Shakes is way too optimistic. I really am not sure that the “progressive men being anti-feminist is against their own interest” line is true. I think it’s quite easy to think of some feminist programs which do actually work against the interests of men and where it is a zero sum game. (BTW: I’m not saying empowering women by working against the interests of men is a bad thing, I’m just saying that we’re not all in this together). Which is why they oppose feminism, not because they don’t fully realise how feminism will help them.

    Child custody law is one example. Plenty of men use this law to harass and victimise their ex-partners. It’s obviously desirable to stop this, but this is absolutely zero sum. In order to stop women being contolled by abusive ex-partners through the courts you’ve got to restrict the options men have to pursue contact. A gain for feminism is a loss for progressive men.

    I think another example is regarding work-life balance and childcare. Plenty of women have childcare dumped upon them destroying their career prospects. We could help these women out by state action to provide childcare and more flexible working. But this does come at a direct cost to men, not all whom are causing the problem by dumping childcare upon women.

    I’m sure cleverer people than me can think of other examples. But I think the reason why it’s so hard to accept that empowering women is not done at the expense of men, and that we’re all in this together, is that this simply isn’t true. Actually, many forms of empowering women are done at the expense of men, that’s not a bad thing, but we’re not all in this together and these guy’s aren’t suffering from some sort of failure to recognise their own interests.

  54. So we have women’s rights and then we have the specter of the shrill and hairy legged cutting off one breast and ritually sacrificing male children?

    Yes. That is *precisely* what I stated above! I don’t know why I didn’t just write that, because that is clearly *exactly* what I meant…

  55. A lot of people on New York One, a local cable news channel, demonstrated in man-on-the-street interviews that their resentment about how much the members of the TWU got in comparison with themselves was directed at the blue-collar transit workers, and not at, say, their own white-collar employers

    I always find this amazing. I can’t even count how many times I’ve seen guys on the progressive boards fuming because they don’t make as much as the supermarket checker, blaming the checker who is obviously grossly overpaid and being completely unreasonable in not taking the iniative in demanding a lower salary, more difficult working conditions, fewer benefits. Hey, why aren’t the checkers and the toll collectors and the garbage collectors and the janitors volunteering to work for free? I think they’re smart enough to understand that it’s not a zero game where anything taken from the checkers would be given to the fumers, so I can only assume that the fumers would take pleasure in the sense of security produced by knowing that others’ lives are equally miserable, and in their opinion deservedly so.

    Does anyone find this, directed at someone who described the feminist movement as “overwhelmingly positive”, a bit troubling?

    Nah. What I personally find troubling is that some guys think saying “I basically think women are human and raping them while unconscious is wrong” entitles them to a medal, such that they can say anything they want without challenge (to challenge our dear allies, no matter what, would be intolerant, we should just bite our tongues, STFU and be ever ever so grateful for the support we receive that we don’t even deserve). No thanks. Repeat after me, “It’s not all about me.” It gets tiresome. I believe the civil rights movement was positive, but I don’t think that gives me a halo or a pass if I decide to go onto a civil rights forum to try and make the discussion all about me demand that everybody pay heed to my menu of unproductive already-discussed-a-million-times cliches. Nobody owes me anything because I’m kind enough to acknowledge their humanity. Own your shit. If you’re sincere, then don’t get so damn defensive and realize that you’re going to be challenged on your assertions and DON’T start whining that you’d be on someone’s side if only they weren’t so mean and did a lot of gentle hand holding. If you want a cookie, go to a bakery.

  56. That is really my point. A criticism of heavy moderation is not a criticism of the basic tenets of feminism. A lot of progressive men who malign feminism are attacking what they see as some bad operating procedures, rather than the central philosophy.

    Then maybe you would have done better to use an example that isn’t a sensible and necessary response to the deeply flawed modus operandi of other people, eh what?

    The reason some progressives can malign feminism while saying they support women’s rights is that they view feminism and supporting women’s rights as two distinct concepts, where feminism is not simply supporting women’s rights but also includes other attitudes, trends towards certain behaviors, etc.

    So how exactly should we go about preventing these people from drawing unfair conclusions based on no evidence?

  57. This guy RO3: I actually think he is a new kind of troll I haven’t seen before.
    RO3: I would be a feminist, but I’m not because of X
    Everyone else: X isn’t true
    RO3: Well, some people believe X, I’m just trying to EXPLAIN why you’re not liked! Also I don’t like Y and reject it on principle.
    EE: Well, there’s a damn good reason for Y
    R03: Well, I don’t have a problem with Y! I’m just trying to explain to you that other people do!
    It’s weird. It’s like he wants to confuse people into making inconsistent or angry statements so he can then seize on said statements and use them as his next reason why he doesn’t like feminism… actually, no, why some other men don’t like feminism.
    My prediction? It’s going to end in:
    EE: We’ve been all the way through the alphabet. What exactly is your damn problem anyway?
    RO3. You’re all SO RUDE TO ME! See, THIS is why nobody likes feminists!!! *flounceoff*

  58. A lot of feminist research and numerical claims are sloppy, in this case a factoid was repeated for years by people who knew or should have known that it was false.

    please god tell me you aren’t trying to say that the 1 in 8 college-aged women are raped statistic is bullshit. because this is a huge pet peeve of mine.

    i think your comment is valid, and by valid i mean it is a good idea to express these worries. whether i agree with them or not or whether they’re true or not, i don’t know.

    i definitely agree that criticizing feminism does not mean that you disagree with it. i often criticize the racism/homophobia/transphobia/classism that i see rather often in the feminist community (ugh i can’t stand it!!).

    i really do feel like the feminist movement is finding it very difficult to ‘band together,’ if you understand what i’m trying to say here, because it feels like every feminist just wants to do hir own thing, as if everyone wants to be their own leader. so whenever i see (on the internets, anyway) someone trying to say, ‘hey, listen, how can we reach out to more people? why do you think no-one’s listening to us? can we please have a discussion about what we all do centrally agree with so that we can be a bit more organized here?’ they are shot down immediately. i’m sure this is not everyone’s experience with feminism on the internets, so i fully realize this without people jumping on me.

    i do think that Random Observer 3’s point about the hyperbolic description of autoadmit threads was legitimate. i don’t know the autoadmit threads so i don’t know if he’s right about THOSE, but i do see a lot of (in almost every movement) hyperbolic descriptions and reactions to things. we ARE oppressed; we don’t need to exagerrate for any reason. you lose people by exagerrating. no, we aren’t all trained to be master debaters, but i think that as activists of some sort (even on an intarwebz scale), feminists should consider reading about persuasive and skilled communication.

    random observer 3, thank you for commenting. you really had me thinking today. and if it makes you feel better, i’m a ‘batshit crazy rad feminist!’ who appreciates yr existance. 😛

  59. Random Observer 3 is not a troll. This isn’t like the one guy who acted feminist on every other thread except the trans* threads. No, we aren’t feminism101 but even if his claims were false or illegitimate, I don’t know why we all need to trip our balls over it.

  60. Yes. That is *precisely* what I stated above! I don’t know why I didn’t just write that, because that is clearly *exactly* what I meant…

    This is what we call sarcasm. And to be clear, this is not an accusation against you or a restatement of your position. My point is that by creating a distinction between “support of women’s rights” and “support of feminism”, you imply that stereotypical attitudes and behaviors are the problem.

    Frankly, this is not the issue.

  61. You haven’t seen that before? I think you’ve just described about 90% of troll discourse. But you forgot:
    RO3: You just called me a rapist! That’s what you feminists do! Not everyone who disagrees with you is a rapist! Imagine that!
    EE: Uh–nobody ever called you a rapist. Not everybody who has a problem with what you say is calling you a rapist–imagine that!
    RO3: Nobody appreciates my helpful but vague lectures on what you’re doing wrong and how you can do better by being more like meeee! If you would accept my mischaracterizations of your arguments and correct them, all would be well.
    EE: It’s hard to correct an argument that nobody’s ever made, though. But we’ll try to do better about making the arguments that you’re wrongly attributing to us so we can correct them to your specifications.

  62. From Mr. Shakes post:

    One of the greatest bulwarks against men accepting the feminist movement is that they seem to think that women gaining power must necessarily dilute their own exclusive powers and status.

    Men (and here, I generally mean straight men) are conditioned—by the news media, by the entertainment industry, by religious fundamentalism, by the government, and by other men—to believe that, first of all, they have a more important set of responsibilities and rights than women, and that, not only do they have these things, but that they deserve them and should do everything they can to defend them.

    I find it pretty implausible that there are many progressive men who don’t think of themselves as feminists who would recognize in themselves the beliefs that Mr. Shakes attributes to them. Nobody calls himself a progressive and thinks to himself: “the reason I’m not a feminist is because I want to hold onto my power and status, and feminism would take that away from me.”

    Maybe the most charitable way to interpret Mr. Shakes’ post is to understand it as involving a claim about false consciousness. While progressive non-feminist men don’t realize it, the real reason they’re not feminists is because of their subconscious false belief that feminism threatens their power and status. They construct rationalizations for their attacks on feminism, but deep down, a self-interested power-protection reflex is what’s doing the work. What do people think? Is this interpretation of Mr. Shakes’ argument correct/plausible?

  63. Daniel, that makes a great deal of sense to me as an interpretation. More sense than RO3’s claims about shoddy research and hysterical hyperbole.

    Even a progressive man still benefits from the patriarchy.

  64. *g* I just hadn’t seen the manouevre of making a provoactive and stupid criticism and then claiming that he didn’t endorse that criticism but was just reporting it. Twice in a row. I mean, I’ve seen people backtrack like that in non-written arguments but it’s like he didn’t realise his previous comments were still in the thread! And it’s a little weird because any of his individual comments come off kind of reasonable-if-misguided, as if he was someone you could talk to and he’d get it; it’s only when you take them as a whole that they start to seem very strange indeed.

  65. Child custody law is one example. Plenty of men use this law to harass and victimise their ex-partners. It’s obviously desirable to stop this, but this is absolutely zero sum. In order to stop women being contolled by abusive ex-partners through the courts you’ve got to restrict the options men have to pursue contact. A gain for feminism is a loss for progressive men.

    Because men who harass their ex-partners are clearly progressives who want a better world for everyone, and not in any way spastic over the loss of informed privilege. Yup.

    I think another example is regarding work-life balance and childcare. Plenty of women have childcare dumped upon them destroying their career prospects. We could help these women out by state action to provide childcare and more flexible working. But this does come at a direct cost to men, not all whom are causing the problem by dumping childcare upon women.

    Because putting money ahead of the welfare of human beings is a progressive position? Funny, I thought being progressive meant working toward a better world for people to live in, not a world that helps bank accounts grow and be free.

  66. i do think that Random Observer 3’s point about the hyperbolic description of autoadmit threads was legitimate. i don’t know the autoadmit threads so i don’t know if he’s right about THOSE, but i do see a lot of (in almost every movement) hyperbolic descriptions and reactions to things. we ARE oppressed; we don’t need to exagerrate for any reason. you lose people by exagerrating. no, we aren’t all trained to be master debaters, but i think that as activists of some sort (even on an intarwebz scale), feminists should consider reading about persuasive and skilled communication.

    Good point, and just off the top of my head I can think of two feminist blogs which emphasize careful, persuasive, and non-confrontational argumentation: The Happy Feminist and Feminist Mormon Housewives. The feminist blogosphere is hardly monolithic.

  67. JennaJ, kali: I f you are going to quote me do it for real. It is kind of dishonest to badly paraphrase what I said when you could easily quote it directly. Kali your imaginary exchange is just that – entirely imaginary.

    please god tell me you aren’t trying to say that the 1 in 8 college-aged women are raped statistic is bullshit.

    I have no idea whether that is true of not, but including date rape I would imagine it is probably accurate. (And yes, date rape is rape, I realize that) I have no reason to question it.

    So how exactly should we go about preventing these people from drawing unfair conclusions based on no evidence?

    Places like this, IBTP, Pandagon, etc, aren’t going to make true believers out of many people. I don’t think Mr. Shakes is going to convince anyone of the error of their ways. In fact, if you read the comments thread over there, it seems to have annoyed the people it is ostensibly trying to persuade. Mr. Shakes piece begins with an insult! You aren’t going to convince progressive men to be feminists by starting with the assertion that they are privileged brats.

    If progressive men have concerns that are misguided, demonstrate how they are misguided. If someone says “all these Feminist sites are heavily moderated, what do you have to hide exactly?” just point out that ShakeSis is not heavily moderated. Or point out that experiments in looser moderation have utterly failed and there isn’t a better alternative.

    If someone says “why do you guys use ‘liberal dudes’ and ‘white dudes’ as a prejorative?”, instead of saying “it’s shorthand” (which is not an acceptable answer IMO, as right-wingers would say the same about “the gays”) why not say “we’ll try not to do that so much any more, as long as you agree to meet us in the middle and stop using words like ‘cunt’ and ‘tranny’ to insult people.”

    All I’m really saying is, if you want to know why progressive men malign feminism, ask them. Then respond. Sure, some of them are going to throw out red-herrings because deep down they really are against equal rights for women, but some of them are going to throw out points you can refute and by doing so change some minds.

    Mr. Shakes piece is the equivalent of “when I want your opinion I’ll tell it to you.” Another example of this:

    While progressive non-feminist men don’t realize it, the real reason they’re not feminists is because of their subconscious false belief that feminism threatens their power and status.

    That may be true for some, but you are not going to convince *any* progressive non-feminist men to become feminists when you start your argument with that. “Let me tell you how you *really* feel” isn’t convincing.

  68. Painini,

    I’m pretty sure that nik isn’t arguing that progressive men should be opposed to feminism. Rather, I take nik to be claiming that, contrary to what Mr. Shakes says, empowering women sometimes does run contrary to the narrow self-interest of men, including progressive men. Nowhere in nik’s post does nik say that progressive men should care only about their own narrow self-interest. I take it that nik thinks they shouldn’t, and often don’t (or at least claim not to). I’d think that a big part of having progressive values involves, in many cases, caring about more than your own narrow self-interests. Nik seems to be agreeing with you and Mr. Shakes that empowerment of women is a good thing, but disagreeing with Mr. Shakes about the claim that the empowerment of women (always? usually?) serves the narrow self-interests of most men.

  69. Henry – what “underpinnings of western civilization”? (and frankly, misogyny cuts across all cultures, not just Western ones.) Am I some sort of violent radical anarchist because I object to being reduced to body parts without a mind or a soul, just because society has assigned me into class “woman”?
    (And please, offer no strawfeminists.)

  70. Slavery was also extremely common and accepted in most societies and although it sadly continues, it has at least been condemned by most governments and is illegal.

  71. Places like this, IBTP, Pandagon, etc, aren’t going to make true believers out of many people.

    True beleivers in what RO? Radical Feminism? Fat Feminism? Cyborg Feminism? Marxist Feminism? Socialist Feminism? Anarchist Feminism? Islamic Feminism? Jewish Feminism? Evangelical Feminism? Catholic Feminism? Sofia Coppola/Hipster Feminism?

    Or do you just mean “accepting that women are people too”, the only truly fundamental concept that all the feminisms* agree on?

    * Exceptions include “pro-life” “feminism” and some brands of Cultural Feminism along with their pet mascot Robert Jensen, but there’s always some people like that in any group.

  72. kali, if you carefully read his post about 7 times (and let’s be honest, why would you) he seems to be saying let’s not even concern ourselves with whether or not I said that right now, because regardless, that’s not my *point.* It’s wrong of us to concern ourselves with what he said and miss the big picture of his point, that some ostensibly progressive people hate feminism not because they’re against women’s rights in practice, but for other reasons, like, say, because they’re in favor of logic, and because some girl in grade school said something about anorexia that wasn’t true, in theory a logical course could be to assume that feminists overall are irrational, deceptive and tolerant of deception, and incapable of scientific rigor. Since there’s obviously no sexism or irrationality involved in that assumption, it makes a lot of sense to me.

  73. I just hadn’t seen the manouevre of making a provoactive and stupid criticism and then claiming that he didn’t endorse that criticism but was just reporting it.

    I think those criticisms are valid (the ones in my first post), but they aren’t huge sticking points and that is a complicated discussion outside the scope of this thread. If nothing else that would quickly become very off topic. (And likely not be permitted)

    If you want to create a new thread dedicated to that I’d be happy to do more research and make some more persuasive claims. But again while I think they are valid they are also minor and I can take the bad with the good, minor sticking points don’t invalidate feminism.

    All I’m asking in this thread is that you grant that it is possible for someone to see those sorts of criticisms as major sticking points without being opposed to women’s rights. I’m willing to have the separate discussion in an appropriate place.

    Appealing to self-interest doesn’t seem like a good approach to me. I’m not really down with the message that we should support causes because they benefit us personally. What kind of people is that going to attract? (Not reliable allies most likely)

    “What’s in it for me?” isn’t the right question to be asking.

    I’m a supporter of gay rights but I don’t believe that advancing gay rights helps me in any way. I don’t have any personal stake at all. Gay people have rights too, that’s a good enough reason for me on its own.

    Encouraging people to make an economic (cost-benefit) evaluation of supporting various causes is strange. In the South plantation owners were opposed to abolition because it would hurt their business. I think the correct reply in that case is not “it will help you too” but “tough shit.”

    To me it makes more sense to appeal not to the self-interest of individuals but to their better natures.

  74. RO3, if you have some point to make about moderation, spit it out. Because you’re frankly just pissing me off with the insinuations.

    And please — enlighten me as to what you think is a “heavy” moderation policy. You will remember that I have banned your ass twice, thus the 3.

    Let’s not make it a third by whining about the moderation policy and making everything about your fee-fees, mmkay?

  75. All I’m asking in this thread is that you grant that it is possible for someone to see those sorts of criticisms as major sticking points without being opposed to women’s rights. I’m willing to have the separate discussion in an appropriate place.

    You know, someone whose sticking point is a moderation policy doesn’t really seem like a genuine ally either.

  76. That is really my point. A criticism of heavy moderation is not a criticism of the basic tenets of feminism. A lot of progressive men who malign feminism are attacking what they see as some bad operating procedures, rather than the central philosophy.

    Yes, well, that gets back to my first question to you. Why are they doing that? What motivates them to do so? Most people are rational enough to realize that some members of a group doing things they don’t like isn’t a reason to dismiss the group and its objectives. When they don’t afford that rather non-controversial point to a specific group, you have to question why the irrational blinders in that instance.

    What I’m saying is that there’s a total failure of critical thinking by those progressive men regarding feminism. Unless you mean us to conclude that all those progressive men are incapable of critical thinking full stop, why is their ability to think critically impaired when it comes to distinguishing between some actions by feminists they don’t like, which have never even been established as prevalent amongst feminists anyway, and a movement whose objectives have zero to do with those actions they don’t like?

    Lastly, realistically, who amongst those men has enough familiarity with a large enough sample of feminists to reason from the specific to the general like that? It’s bad inductive reasoning, and for someone who claims to like to see arguments buttoned up and bulletproof, you’re carrying a lot of water here for men who have done the precise opposite of that. Why?

  77. All I’m asking in this thread is that you grant that it is possible for someone to see those sorts of criticisms as major sticking points without being opposed to women’s rights. I’m willing to have the separate discussion in an appropriate place.

    If you don’t provide the persuasive evidence answering WHY you think their reasoning is somehow valid, why should anyone here grant that? You have yet to do so, despite repeated requests to ante up. I, for one, am not in the habit of granting things I disagree with just because someone effectively says “Pretty please.” Are you?

    Also, “women’s rights” is a very vague term. I’m quite certain most progressive men are not opposed to women voting, working outside the home, legalized abortion, birth control, etc. However, when it comes to things like recognizing that a women who is really drunk is not in a position to consent to sex? Or conceding that the wage gap isn’t because “women make different choices?” No, I don’t think all of them see it that way at all. I’ve certainly seen enough who don’t. And none of those disagreements have a damn thing to do with a disdain for perceived “basic operating procedures.”

  78. I already said I’m not complaining about the moderation policy. I’m not insinuating anything. I appreciate the fact that I’ve been allowed to post here after being banned.

    To answer your question, in my mind a “heavy” moderation policy is any moderation policy that mods out anything other than pure spam, death threats and things of that nature. But again I’m *not* complaining about that.

    Lesley those are some good questions. It surprised me to read that not many people here are into Marxist feminism. In certain circles (academic for example) Marxist feminism is probably the premier brand of feminism. Someone coming from that environment is going to have a very different view of things than someone who’s main exposure to feminism comes somplace else. If you’d asked me 10 years I probably would have said that Marxist feminism is very prevalent in feminist circles.

    What people view as prevalent in feminism is going to depend on a lot of things.

    You may see *some* members of a group doing something, they may see “a lot” or “nearly all.” Maybe they aren’t looking in the right place. Some people are ignorant, and everyone is exposed to things selectively. Bad inductive reasoning is par for the course.

    That’s why in response to piny I stated that education is a good answer. For the people who genuinely think that most feminists do X or think Y, just demonstrate that that is false.

  79. Child custody law is one example. Plenty of men use this law to harass and victimise their ex-partners. It’s obviously desirable to stop this, but this is absolutely zero sum. In order to stop women being contolled by abusive ex-partners through the courts you’ve got to restrict the options men have to pursue contact. A gain for feminism is a loss for progressive men.

    Because men who harass their ex-partners are clearly progressives who want a better world for everyone, and not in any way spastic over the loss of informed privilege. Yup.

    Oh, please, painini. You can’t change a law to read “non-custodial parents may only be involved with decisions regarding their children if they are not abusive fuckwits”, much as some of us would like that.

    So you see the problem of some abusive fuckwits harrassing their ex-spouses (and whilst I’m using gender-neutral language, we all know that overwhelmingly this is men harassing women), you narrow the options for non-custodial contact/involvement/rights of access in order to combat it, and a progressive man caught in an ugly custody battle finds himself without the legal recourse of yesteryear.

    It’s always a balancing act. You make it easier for disadvantaged people to access welfare schemes, and a few dishonest people take advantage of that. You tighten evidence laws so that defendants aren’t prejudiced, and some guilty people walk free. You make it easier to obtain restraining orders against potentially abusive ex-partners, because for a long time ‘just threats’ weren’t enough and police wanted to see evidence of an actual assault – and some decent, progressive guy finds himself unable to walk past his kids’ school for the next year.

    Laws are balancing acts between the rights of various parties. I would of course far rather see the legal recourse of women who are being harassed strengthened. But are you really denying that to do so doesn’t mean that a few progressive blokes will find themselves fighting a law that impacts on them unfairly?

  80. If you don’t provide the persuasive evidence answering WHY you think their reasoning is somehow valid, why should anyone here grant that?

    Because in their personal experience that’s what they’ve seen. I’m not saying the reasoning is valid, but that it comes from a valid place. It’s like the story of the blind guys feeling up an elephant. One guy feels the trunk and thinks it’s a snake. Is that a correct conclusion? No. Does it come from a valid place? Sure.

    Sometimes people are just genuinely wrong.

    I’m willing to grant that people who are wrong can be wrong because they are misinformed rather than full of malice. You don’t even have to ask “pretty please.”

    The good thing about people who argue from personal experience (which is really nearly everyone) is that you can always help broaden that experience.

  81. Major sticking points? Apart from the fact that feminist blogs aren’t the only moderated blogs out there, and there are many unmoderated feminist blogs, how can the moderation policy of someone else’s blog ever really be a major issue for anyone in any context? Most of the complaining I see from “progressives” about the moderation issue is guys getting upset that amp won’t allow them to bust into his rape/rape survivor threads to get up in women’s faces and make the discussion all about false rape accusations all the time. Now I’m not saying that your feelings or your desires to dictate how someones else’s blog is run aren’t important, but there are people in the world who think that having a place where you’re not going to be threatened with death or accused of making it up when you share something personal is almost equally important. Like evil fizz says, someone who takes his ball and goes home when he finds out he’s not allowed to run the show his way doesn’t really seem like the world’s most valuable ally.

  82. Zuzu, I’ve already said I have no complaints with the moderation policy here, and that I appreciate the fact that I can post after being banned which is more than I would be granted at most internet sites. (Not just feminist sites, but all of the internets)

    I really can’t say anything beyond that without repeating myself endlessly.

  83. All I’m asking in this thread is that you grant that it is possible for someone to see those sorts of criticisms as major sticking points without being opposed to women’s rights.

    Oh! You want feminists who don’t recognise an obstructionist when they see one? Have you tried CWFA?

    Does it come from a valid place? Sure.

    An elephant is not a snake, a horse in a bowler hat is not neccesarily a stockbroker.

    I cannot stress that enough.

    If you tell a blind man who thinks an elephant is a snake that it’s not actually a snake, on account of it being an elephant, and then you go onto let him feel some of the rest of the elephant, or better yet, you get the other three blind guys to describe their elephant, from which it’d be pretty fucking clear that that elephant must be made up of parts like what they’re all describing while still being a singular unified critter…

    …And then the three blind guys pout and cry and whine about how they prefferred their elephants, and why do you hatez the blind menz?

    Well that’s the point where you realise that they weren’t three wise men, and then you ask them to pay for the privelage of feeling up your elephant, and other creepiness related fees they have duly earned.

  84. Kali your imaginary exchange is just that – entirely imaginary.

    Dude, all you’ve been doing is making imaginary arguments. You list a few really stupid examples of why you find feminism “offputting,” then say that you were just speculating about reasons that some other hypothetical men might not be too crazy about feminism. Then you request that everyone concede that these arguments that nobody has actually made are coming from a “valid place.” It’s all a colossal waste of time. This comment thread needs a do-over. Just delete it all and start over without RO3.

  85. It’s an example of a criticism that has nothing to do with misogyny, maintaining special privileges or anything like that. I like to use examples rather than completely theoretical musings.

    You could restate my entire argument as something like:

    “Sometimes people have objections to what they perceive as standard operating procedures or common practices and views among feminists, rather than to the core values of feminism itself.”

    Without any illustrative examples that doesn’t say a whole lot IMO. I think moderation is a good example because a lot of people do bitterly complain about that.

    And again, when people are arguing from perceptions that you believe are wrong or incomplete the way to convince them is not to claim they are privileged brats but to point out where they are mistaken. (Nicely)

    Getting back to the original article, I would divide those who malign feminism into two groups:

    1. People genuinely opposed to the core concepts.
    2. People opposed to the practices of feminists.

    Group 1 is not going to be persuaded of anything. People in group 2 could perhaps be convinced that feminism is not monolithic and that the practices they are against are not the norm, or at the very least not the rule. Feminism is a big tent and all that. What the original article appears to be doing is convincing people in group 1 to ally with feminists solely out of self-interest, rather than appeal to group 2. To me, someone who says “I support rights for women, gays and other minorities because they benefit me personally” is not really supporting much of anything, and those people aren’t worth recruiting. Whereas people in group 2 may be good people who are just a bit misguided.

    There are people say hear through the grapevine that feminists hate men, then maybe they read a post on IBTP about “dumbass liberal dudes” and that “confirms” what they’ve heard. Those people can be converted.

    And those are the people you *want* to convert.

  86. In certain circles (academic for example) Marxist feminism is probably the premier brand of feminism. Someone coming from that environment is going to have a very different view of things than someone who’s main exposure to feminism comes somplace else. If you’d asked me 10 years I probably would have said that Marxist feminism is very prevalent in feminist circles.

    Which is odd, because when I was in college 10-15 years ago, Marxism was pretty much dead and we were transitioning away from “difference feminism” to something more egalitarian. In fact, I can’t remember running into a single Marxist when I was in college, but I went to a fairly conservative school in So Cal (most of the convicted Watergate criminals went to my school! Yay us!)

    We do have a word for people who make up their minds about a group based on a few encounters in a specific context that can’t be extended to the wider world: bigots.

  87. “In certain circles (academic for example) Marxist feminism is probably the premier brand of feminism.”

    Do you have any cites or evidence to back that up? I’m not saying it’s not true, but I get the strong impression that you know just about as much about academic feminism as I do, which is to say, nothing. I agree with you that sloppy thinking and assertions without any supporting evidence should not be tolerated. If I’m wrong and you actually do know quite a bit about academic feminism, I apologize, but I’d still appreciate it if you could provide some links so that the rest of us could educate ourselves about the topic, as well.

    “grant that it is possible for some people to see those sorts of criticisms as major sticking points without being opposed to women’s rights”

    Then make an argument. Don’t just expect it to be taken on faith. We’re talking about progressive men, right? They’re not stupid. They’ve demonstrated some ability to think critically. But if some of them have a big old sense of indifference or hostility to the details of women’s rights, and yet that’s not based on actual inability to view women as equals, it’s based on some true good faith objection–which would be what, exactly? Can you give an example? We’re still waiting to hear, because “omg a girl in my hs was totally goofy!” isn’t really cutting it.

    “I’m willing to grant that people who are wrong may be wrong because they are misinformed rater than full of malice”

    Yes, because the ones who are full of malice are moderating websites and taking anorexia seriously (okay, that was mean). That’s good for you, but it’s easier to take such a sanguine view when you have nothing at stake and you don’t really care.

    When it does sort of matter to you, and too many of the people who are supposed to be your allies throw you under the bus and stab you in the back whenever it’s convenient for them, it gets harder to assume it’s all based on good faith. When you see some of the things that some progressive guys are comfortable saying casually and out in the open at some of the biggest liberal blogs, and when you try and discuss it and they don’t seem to listen, and when you ask for basic respect and you get blown off and told they don’t have to respect you, and when everything is about them, and when you get told that you have to earn even the hope of reciprocation from your allies for your silly pidding concerns by being sweet and offering incentives and framing things in the exact way that will make them most happy, and constantly educating them and reeducating them and proving over and over and over again that you really don’t do X or Y no matter how often they continue to insist you do in the fact of all logic and evidence, well, you start to think you’re wasting your time a bit. Like this thread, and what raging red said.

    There are plenty of guys who seem to do just fine without all this coddling and fawning, and nothing seems to work on the other guys, so what is the point in us wasting our time like that? We don’t control the universe, at a certain point you’ve got to put some time in on your own. People who are determined not to get it probably won’t no matter how much “good faith” they have. And a pretty good way to get others to assume that you’re acting in good faith is (gasp) to demonstrate that you are.

  88. If someone says “why do you guys use ‘liberal dudes’ and ‘white dudes’ as a prejorative?”, instead of saying “it’s shorthand” (which is not an acceptable answer IMO, as right-wingers would say the same about “the gays”) why not say “we’ll try not to do that so much any more, as long as you agree to meet us in the middle and stop using words like ‘cunt’ and ‘tranny’ to insult people.”

    Yeah, that’s meeting us in the middle. You stop calling us cunts and trannies, and we’ll stop using “liberal dude” (cue scary music). Honestly, are you for real, or are you a parody?

    All I’m really saying is, if you want to know why progressive men malign feminism, ask them. Then respond.

    Yeah, okay. Well, here’s the thing. That’s an invaluable suggestion. Nobody and I mean nobody would ever have been smart enough to come up with it on her own without your guidance. If you want to know why, ask them. That’s communication gold. I’ll take your condescending style over Mr. Shakes’ insulting one any day. But let’s say, just in theory, that’s been tried before. And let’s say, again in theory, that the response isn’t something like “you’re menstrating she-devils, STFU” but rather, something like, oh I don’t know, say, “a girl in my sandbox when I was three didn’t know how to share. All wimmins are grabby like that and I just can’t get past it,” well, um, then what? Tell me, O Swami, how do I refute that? What is the key? You covered how to handle the moderation thing but left me hanging on this.

    If progressive men have concerns that are misguided, demonstrate how they are misguided. If someone says “all these Feminist sites are heavily moderated, what do you have to hide exactly?” just point out that ShakeSis is not heavily moderated. Or point out that experiments in looser moderation have utterly failed and there isn’t a better alternative.

    My fondest desire is to have a conversation with a progressive who says “what do you have to hide, exactly?” That’s just such a brilliant thing to say, if we let him get away and he defects to the other side, we’re screwed. And I look forward to many long and fruitful discussions with this gentleman, “no touch stove, hot, it make owie.” If only you had come to show the way sooner, everyone’s life would be so much easier. And I know for sure this strategy is effective cuz facts like these have actually been pointed out to you since this thread began, and while you keep complaining about the moderation, you very quickly deny complaining about the moderation right before complaining about the moderation again so–we’re gold, baby! With these debating tips it’s only a matter of time before all progressives are in favor of equality! Who knew it was this easy–salvation was only a step away.

    Seriously, you are a parody troll, correct?

  89. I objected to the word “power” (perhaps I should’ve used quotations) to describe the fight for basic human rights because men typically associate it with domination and a desire rather than a need (for example: if society talked about homelessness as a materialism issue, it would confuse a basic right with luxury). I hope I made my point.

  90. JM what I said about marxism in academic feminist circles is not even close to correct and it’s kind of embarrassing that I said it. I got a little overzealous there.

    I would elaborate but it’s sleepy time. It’s also impossible for me to answer everyone without posting 10 pages of stuff and monopolizing the conversation more than I already have. It is hard to please people when answering everything is exhausting but doing less than that is dodging.

    I don’t have a whole lot more to say past what I’ve already said anyway. This has actually gone far better than I imagined it would. It was inevitable that some people would play the purposefully bad paraphrase game to argue with a straw man but for the most part people have been open-minded.

    I think advocacy is important. When someone says that many progressive men malign feminism my response is how do we fix that? Starting with the assumption that progressive men are genuinely opposed to women’s rights doesn’t accomplish much. That’s a conversation ender. Starting with the assumption that progressive men have complaints you can address (where addressing can be simply explaining away in some cases) provides you an avenue for progress.

    I’d like to see more (and would actively participate in) efforts to perform genuine advocacy of feminism. Because I think there are reasonable people out there who can be convinced with the right approach.

  91. Because in their personal experience that’s what they’ve seen. I’m not saying the reasoning is valid, but that it comes from a valid place.

    But that isn’t what they’ve seen if they’re supporting individual feminists. They’ve seen examples of individual feminists who are not like the strawfeminists they’re allegedly tilting at. And unless I’m seriously mistaken, they’ve likely discussed their concerns with feminism with the individual feminist friends and been told they were mistaken and why. Yet they continue to insist their mistaken view is correct and get angry with their feminist friends for challenging their assumptions.

    If you go through that enough times, you conclude that the issue really isn’t “bad operating procedures.” After you’ve explained to the blind man that the elephant is not a snake and here’s why, if he were to continue to insist that you’re just wrong and it really is a snake and why are you being so mean to him and maybe if you’d just be nicer to him and say it in a happier way he’d consider that it might be an elephant after all, what would you conclude?

  92. This has actually gone far better than I imagined it would.

    Yes, you managed to derail the whole damn thread for no apparent reason.

  93. It’s also impossible for me to answer everyone without posting 10 pages of stuff and monopolizing the conversation more than I already have.

    You’ve failed to respond to people – or rather valid points which undermined your claims – since the beginning; why try to make it sound otherwise?

    Setting the RO3 aside…

    From Rainne @ 84: Laws are balancing acts between the rights of various parties. I would of course far rather see the legal recourse of women who are being harassed strengthened. But are you really denying that to do so doesn’t mean that a few progressive blokes will find themselves fighting a law that impacts on them unfairly?

    I think that’s the sticking part. I admit, I’d missed the “Nothing we fairly had to begin with, anyway.” in Shakes’ original post – that’s what I get for skimming – and I think the word “fairly” carries a lot of weight.

    When the standard becomes equality and justice, the ability to float by on your own priviledge becomes harder.

    When the statement on the part of those allied with whichever oppressed group becomes, “I know the deck is stacked against you; what cards do you need?” the entire dynamic of the relationship changes – imo.

    But there will always be people who resent to giving of cards because their perception is that everyone was dealt the same cards and they don’t want to see or have no way of seeing how the deck was stacked in their favor. Realizing how the deck is stack also brings into question one’s ego; if one got where one is due to a stacked deck, is it possible one actually sucks? People will go miles to avoid awareness of their own suckitude; oppressing a few people and ignoring what they have to say is easy, by comparison.

  94. Deoridhe, I think the “Nothing we fairly had to begin with, anyway.” came from me in the comments here and not from Shakes. Which I stand by.

    Child custody law is one example. Plenty of men use this law to harass and victimise their ex-partners. It’s obviously desirable to stop this, but this is absolutely zero sum. In order to stop women being contolled by abusive ex-partners through the courts you’ve got to restrict the options men have to pursue contact. A gain for feminism is a loss for progressive men.

    This is extremely faulty logic. The potential to harass people is not a fair posession of men. Even if a stronger law might unfairly restrict some people, that is not the loss of something men had fairly. A lot of laws may have unfair applications. I don’t think stronger child custody laws (with regards to protecting women from abusive ex-partners) can be said to be a loss for progressive men just because a progressive man could hypothetically find themselves in a situation that disadvantages them. They didn’t have a fair advantage to begin with, so losing it is not an unfair loss. But back to the thread derailment…

    Places like this, IBTP, Pandagon, etc, aren’t going to make true believers out of many people.

    So what? What is wrong about that? What is wrong about places existing that preach to the choir. No one suggests the choir should be the only people preached to, but what’s wrong with choir practice? A place for the “true believers” to discuss the issues that concern them with sympathetic parties. While preaching to the choir isn’t all the feminist movement should be, decrying the existance of these forums means that all that we should be doing is preaching to the heathens. That isn’t productive, either. This goes for feminism and all the other progressive causes that are constantly beseiged by detractors who insist that they run the discussion and conversation. Well, no. There is a time to debate with the other side and there is a time to form and consider one’s own beliefs. And believe me, there are people here who have to confront anti-feminism every day. Who have to stand up for themselves every day. None of us live in a perfect utopia. We all need to interact and deal with opposing views in our everyday lives. Having a place to turn to for support, encouragement, and intellectual development is hardly too much to want or ask for. And I’ll tell you something else, if you think sites that engage in “choir practice” can’t earn new believers, you’re wrong about that, too. I’ve seen time and time again people come to progressive sites with a only tentative understanding and appreciation for the issue who became engaged and enthusiastic as a result of the conversation. There will always be those who remain unconverted and who think the community must be a failure for not changing their own specific mind. Doesn’t mean many others aren’t served in many different ways.

  95. Deoridhe: Like I said, people are already accusing me of monopolizing the conversation, and there are about 30 more comments I could be responding to. If you have a great suggestion I’m all ears. I already offered to respond more in a dedicate thread, I’m not sure what I can do beyond that. (Maybe hire a pool of interns to help me)

    If you have a couple of points that I realy must answer list them and I’ll respond, I don’t like leaving direct questions and accusation floating in the air. But at the same time I simply can’t repond to everything and if I did people would hate me for it anyway.

    BStu: There is nothing wrong with places that preach to the choir. (In your words) I just don’t see many places that perform advocacy, and Mr. Shakes piece, while ostensibly persuasive, really was nothing of the sort. To me it was written for the choir, though it was directed at progressive men.

    In where you took my original quote from I had written more about how places like this are for spreading awareness and solidifying thought and that sort of thing (IMO) but it was getting too wordy.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with a place like Feministe that is not particularly concerned wth conversion.

  96. In response to the child custody example, BStu says:

    This is extremely faulty logic. The potential to harass people is not a fair posession of men. Even if a stronger law might unfairly restrict some people, that is not the loss of something men had fairly. A lot of laws may have unfair applications. I don’t think stronger child custody laws (with regards to protecting women from abusive ex-partners) can be said to be a loss for progressive men just because a progressive man could hypothetically find themselves in a situation that disadvantages them. They didn’t have a fair advantage to begin with, so losing it is not an unfair loss. But back to the thread derailment…

    This misses the point. Here are the claims at issue, as I understand them

    Mr. Shakes: Men oppose feminism because they think it will hurt their interests, but actually, female empowerment is in the interests of men.

    Nik: Well, not always, see child custody example. Though empowering women is good, it doesn’t necessarily benefit men.
    Bstu: Yeah, but the ways it which it hurts men’s interests is by taking away advantages that were unfair to begin with.

    If I’m right that this is the structure of the dialectic, then it looks to me as if BStu’s response to nik is just changing the subject. It’s true, but it’s a non sequitur. Nik wasn’t saying that progressive men should be opposed to feminism, or that feminism unfairly disadvantages men, nik was just saying that empowering women, contrary to what Mr. Shakes says, does sometimes conflict with the interests of men. This is consistent with it being right, good, and fair to empower women. The only way that BStu’s accusation of “faulty logic” could be acurate would be if nik was making the argument that, because empowering women sometimes hurts progressive men, we shouldn’t empower women. But nik wasn’t making that argument.

  97. Kali your imaginary exchange is just that – entirely imaginary.

    I just want to say that I used his actual words the first time I pointed out this manoeuvre. It was just too much hassle to do it twice.

  98. Nik wasn’t saying that progressive men should be opposed to feminism, or that feminism unfairly disadvantages men, nik was just saying that empowering women, contrary to what Mr. Shakes says, does sometimes conflict with the interests of men. This is consistent with it being right, good, and fair to empower women.

    I have to say that I personally agree with this assessment, and I think we do a diservice to the intelligence of everyone involved to pretend that empowering women (or, I should say, white women) is shiny puppies and happiness for everyone. That isn’t to say it isn’t worth doing – gods know it is – and that’s not saying there aren’t greater gains in the future, but there will be loss too.

    I believe that if people refuse to acknowledge this, especially within ourselves, then we’ll be fighting ourself the whole way – and that’s not a good way to build up or sustain momentum in change. I also believe that one of the useful reframings is of “justice”. This isn’t just; I will lose some privilege/undergo some discomfort/make an effort to be more inclusive because it’s The Right Thing To Do ™. Of course, this gets counterspun as “smug superiority,” but no motivation or position is unspinnable.

    And the correction of who most likely added in “Nothing we fairly had to begin with, anyway.” is appreciated.

  99. For the members of male-only Augusta National empowering women is a pretty clear loss. I suppose you can say those aren’t progressive men but even some progressive men like male-only spaces. (For example)

    Arguing that people should act out of self-interest instead of a sense of justice is misguided. Maybe helping women helps men, maybe it doesn’t, but that isn’t really the point.

  100. It’s an example of a criticism that has nothing to do with misogyny, maintaining special privileges or anything like that. I like to use examples rather than completely theoretical musings.

    Coming into an environment that you’re not familiar with and criiticizing how it’s run and whining and demanding attention and demanding that policies by justified or changed to suit you and gain your support has nothing to do with special privilege? Dismissing feminists wholesale and stereotyping them as tolerant of sloppyiness and lacking in rigor because some girl you knew once made a questionable argument has nothing to do with misogyny?

    See, thats the problem. The examples you picked have everything to do with privilege, which is why your argument makes no sense. And you’ve been told that over and over and you don’t listen. I like concrete examples too, and I’d love if you can come up with some actual reason that doesn’t involve misogyny or male privilege that would justify a progressive man screaming away from supporting equality.

    There are people say hear through the grapevine that feminists hate men, then maybe they read a post on IBTP about “dumbass liberal dudes” and that “confirms” what they’ve heard. Those people can be converted.

    And those are the people you *want* to convert.

    Right, because someone who’s so fragile that he’ll break out the cunts and run away if somebody slips up walking on eggshells for one second or if he slips out and somebody makes a decision that he’s not comfortable with becasuse he always has to be the leader is the one ally who’ll always be on you side. What if we can’t babysit him every minute and he hears somebody say “white dude”??? Actual allies in any kind of alliance check their privilege at the door and realize that sometimes they’re going to hear things that hurt their feelings and they deal with it, because they’re allies and it’s not all about them.

    nik was just saying that empowering women, contrary to what Mr. Shakes says, does sometimes conflict with the interests of men

    Of course, but isn’t his point that despite some loss of privilege, they’ll gain more in the long run? Patriarchy obviously benefits men in many ways but it hurts them in other ways and isn’t he just saying that on balance it’ll be worth it on a selfish level as well as, obviously on a fairness level?

  101. The loss of unfair privlage cannot fairly be considered a loss. Bottom line. That isolated incidents of unfairness to men may exist does not change the big picture. Isolated incidents of unfairness will always happen. The simply mean nothing to this discussion. To even note them, much less fixate on them, misses the point entirely. That a “progressive” man might lose the unfair advantages of patriarchy protecting him for a random instance of unfairness is a concievable scenario, but no fair or progressive reading of that scenario could regard the problem as the loss of an unfair advantage as opposed to the damage that unfair advantage will do. Addressing it is, indeed, an example of male privlage. Of making equality about men losing something. We’re talking about stolen goods, here. We lose nothing we fairly have by persuing true equality. We benefit from a world where all have the same opportunities and advantages. Men have nothing to fear from equality. A better world really is better for everyone

  102. Dismissing feminists wholesale and stereotyping them as tolerant of sloppyiness and lacking in rigor because some girl you knew once made a questionable argument has nothing to do with misogyny?

    Except that I didn’t actually do that. Don’t let that stand in your way though.

    You missed the point about the anorexia stat. Like the “men beat their wives during the superbowl” stat it was repeated for years by people who knew it was false. (Or *should* have known) Some girl I once knew didn’t make it up herself, it was a very common thing to hear in those days.

    The entire history is pretty interesting, this is a good link about it. (Arguing that both the original claim and the counter-claim by Christina Hoff Sommers were both incorrect, suprising absolutely nobody. Unfotunately the piece below doesn’t include any footnotes and isn’t verifiable without making phone calls):

    http://www.polisci.ucla.edu/faculty/boneill/anorexia.html

    This is also a interesting read:

    http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_n30_v10/ai_15640024

    (Note: I am not a fan of Christina Hoff Sommers nor do I agree with the tone of the link above and comments about “hysterical feminists” etc, but it does do a good job of describing how that particular factoid propagated and how prominent it was at one point)

    I don’t think this is an example of some grand conspiracy, just people who were eager to make a point and switched off their brains while doing it. 150k women dying a year of anorexia is a stat that should set off alarms, yet it was published widely for a number of years and repeated for years after that.

    The men beat their wives during the super bowl is another interesting one that I won’t get into too much. I would point out that in both these cases I did not hear about these claims by reading something by Christina Hoff Sommers. (Who I have never read up until 10 minutes ago while googling) In the case of the super bowl wife beating I heard a long discussion on NPR (?) about it, and in the case of 150k women dying of anorexia I heard it first from a classmate.

    Again, I don’t think feminists are bad with number or not to be trusted. To me this is just some overzealous people excersizing occasional bad judgement. I see that happening more often than I would like, but them’s the breaks. Of course the media takes some responsibility for consistently neglecting good research in favor of sensational headlines. In many cases the research is good but the conclusions drawn (sometimes by people who didn’t do the research) are suspect. The AAUW was embroiled in a few of these cases in the 90s. AAUW makes their survey instruments and results readily available, and their methods are sound overall, but their press kit writers and publicists sometimes drop the ball. Sometimes it’s like a game of telephone where the claims that end up in books and splashed across headlines are very different from the original research.

    As I said (a billion times) these incidents don’t discredit feminism in any way. I think feminists could do a better job of avoiding this sort of thing but nobody’s perfect.

    However I do see how that sort of thing could be a big deal to someone, without them being against women’s rights. In that case again the best thing is to point out that these examples of feminist stats run wild don’t occur with alarming frequency and mostly stem from people being too eager rather than dishonest. (And from dumb ass PR people)

  103. Oh, for fuck’s sake, STOP.

    This time, you’re out. Don’t even try to come back. This entire thread has been about you, you, you.

  104. Thank you, thank you, thank you, Zuzu. Can we get some oxygen in here and talk about something that isn’t RO3’s fee-fees or ever-changing arguments?

  105. RO3,that stll doesn’t pass the smell test.

    Again, we’re talking about *progressive* men. Men who live in a dominant conseravtive culture, and yet haeve not just unthinkingly accepted every message and cliche they’e been exposed to.

    Now, if you’ve demonstarted an ability to think critically and yet when you hear through the grapevine that feminists are hairy legged harridans who want to take away your porn and you’re somehow forced to accept that at face value as if you were an automaton, can you see how that doesn’t suggest good intentions? It suggests that you believe it because you want to believe it, because it reenforced some kind of preexisting hostility or prejudice.

    A progressive man who has a great big blind spot when it comes to racism, feminism, gay liberation, transgender rights really doesn’t seem like a good prospect for conversion to me. In fact, quite the opposite. He can’t plead ignorance and to cling to hoary myths seems willful instead. He seems to be happy the way e is. To be converted you have to be open to conversion. Progressive men like to cling tenaciously to their blind spots in my experience.

    A progressive man, who, presumably, lives in the world and understands lies, damn lies, statistics, and misinformaton come from every quarter and yet seizes on an example from a particular social justice movement as a justification for disavowing that movement? It seems like he might have a problem with the underlying premices of equality if he’s holding one movement to a different standard from every other isuue in the world. It seems like he’s looking for an excuse,grasping at straws. He knows better–yet he doesn’t. Why?

    A man who claims to be in favor of, say, gay rights, but decides he’s uncomfortable, can’t get on board, it’s gone too far because someone has a moderated board? I don’t know what to say. Someone who wanted to be educated in other areas to resist dominant cultural messages, but can’t be bothered to do some research, think listen reason about a particular topic, beause he knows all about it already somehow? Again, not a good prospect for conversion.

    Someone who expects everyone around him to drop what they’re doing and continually reinvent the wheel for his benefit? Again, not a good prospect for conversion. We don’t have either magic powers or all the time in the world. If he can’t do any work on his own but just shows up full of anger and myths and expects to be educated and placated on his own terms, I can’t see how that much aggravation is going to end up being worth the time and effort.

  106. Thanks Zuzu. I actually have to re-read the original post now because for the life of me I can’t remember what we’re talking about. RO3 was special.

  107. The loss of unfair privlage cannot fairly be considered a loss. Bottom line. That isolated incidents of unfairness to men may exist does not change the big picture.

    I would agree with you, but I think the underlying issue is that some men, including some which self-identify as progressive, would not. And some women, including some which self-identify as feminist, would have similar problems.

    This is anecdotal, but I remember being struck by a discussion on housework and how some self-identifying feminists reflected on how they actually drove their partners away from some chores by overly critiquing how they did it. It took self-awareness and effort for them to acknowledge that other methods might be acceptable as well, not because they wanted to be oppressed by housework but because That Is Just How It’s Done ™.

    Change is hard. The drive to reproduce what is familiar, even if it is undesirable, is strong. I honestly think that an awareness of this is needed for the personal level of feminism in terms of changing hearts and minds (to throw in some jargon; we were sadly jargonless, ne?). If you know you’ll meet resistence within yourself, then I think it’s easier to fight against that resistence and you can do it with friends and support. If internal resistence is somehow “bad” or “wrong” or “unacceptable” then it goes underground.

    Don’t let the resistence win, gods no, but don’t pretend it doesn’t exist, either.

  108. Yay, moderation! ^^ Oh, and Zuzu, thanks for closing off the subplot; it was growing tediously repetative.

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