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Hillary’s Woman Problem

Like many feminists, I’m conflicted about the whole Hillary-for-President thing. I think a lot of us had pinned our hopes on her, and we feel like she failed us. Her support of the Iraq war is one of the biggest issues for me; her support of welfare reform was a sad reminder that for all her talk about women’s rights, she’s willing to sell certain groups of women down the river for political gain; and her recent attempts to be a moderate just make her look spineless. But I’m still clinging to the hope that if she was elected, she’d be good. She’d not only be a female president, but a feminist president. And at the end of the day, she’s a politician — her primary interest is getting re-elected, so she’s never going to be my ideal representative. But compared to a lot of other politicians — and a lot of other Democrats — she’s pretty good. And if she runs for president, she’ll have a lot of people who will be very willing to work very hard for her.

But I still think she has to earn our votes. And I remain very undecided. This week, two other feminists have taken on the Hillary question, and come to opposite conclusions. See Siren Magazine’s Allison Hantschel, who writes that she won’t vote for Hillary just because she’s a woman, and Salon’s Rebecca Traister, who argues that Hillary is us. Thoughts?


39 thoughts on Hillary’s Woman Problem

  1. I would be crushed if Hillary got the presidential nomination.

    We desperately need a Democratic candidate who has vocally opposed the war. With 61% of Americans now opposing our continued occupation of Iraq, I think it would be just insane to run a Democrat who won’t represent her constituency. But I think that’s what’s likely to happen.

    It’s like having two anti-choice candidates, or two homo-bigot candidates. It doesn’t leave us with any real choice. I’m tired of voting for the least evil candidate who has a snowball’s chance in Hell of winning. I want someone who represents me and who will get us out of Iraq and keep us out of conflicts like this in the future.

  2. From the Hantschel article:

    When Chisholm announced her historic run, she said, “I stand before you today as a candidate for the Democratic nomination for the Presidency of the United States. I am not the candidate of black America, although I am black and proud. I am not the candidate of the women’s movement of this country, although I am a woman, and I am equally proud of that. I am not the candidate of any political bosses or special interests. I am the candidate of the people.”

    Now that was a woman I could have cheered all the way to the White House.

    Can you see Hillary saying something like that? I don’t know that I can. 🙁

  3. I read this article, which details Codepink’s birddogging of Hillary at Take Back America. I think they’re doing a great job of holding her accountable and asking her to listen to her supporters.

  4. This is what I think. Shorter version: “And while Clinton hasn’t taken voice lessons to sound like a dude, a number of her compromises come on the backs of feminist positions, so as to neutralize the charge that she is beholden to ‘pitfalls of feminism.’ I’m willing to forgive her those trespasses. However, it does lead me to believe that the most liberal president we might elect in 2008 will not be the one who has to continually compromise to cover her gender.”

  5. I think Hillary would be awful, for feminists or anyone else. She is Bill Clinton with more brains and less charm, with all that entails. I like Bill. I thought he was a good president, in light of what he was up against. I thin kHIllary is probably a better than average Senator. But I don’t think the Bill and Hillary approach of triangulating every damned issue to death did liberalism or the Democratic Party any long term good. Hillary’s slow and incomplete turn away from her Iraq war support, and her wishy-washy take on the torture issue, are flashing red danger signs for what she would bring to the presidency. Iraq and the expansion of executive power, and the accompanying gutting of our constitution, has to be THE issues addressed by the next Congress, and then the next President. If not, we’re just fucked. I don’t think Hillary is the one to do it, but I am not sure who is.

  6. Also, wouldn’t it be nice to have a candidate untainted by charges of nepotism? Maybe I’m just being too purist, but there’s something deeply offensive about political clans, be they Kennedys or Bushes.

  7. I think it depends on whether we’re talking about the primary or the full election. I’m willing to have debates about what kind of Democratic candidate we want (and I certainly haven’t made up my mind yet as to who would be best); but if you think it would be better to have a Republican than Hillary Clinton, you’re out of your minds.
    I think I’m with Jill – I see Hillary Clinton as a very flawed candidate (especially on the Iraq war), just as her husband let us down dreadfully when he signed the “Defense of Marriage” Act (what bullshit). But I think she’s smart, and she will bring a lot to the table for women and for liberals. I also agree with X. Trapnel about dynasties.

    But I can’t help but think that we put so much more pressure on Clinton because she’s a woman. She’s a fairly centrist Democrat, no different from many others who will likely toss their hats in the ring, except insofar as she is a woman and has been vilified beyond belief by both right and the left. I can’t think of another candidate that inspires such vitriol on both sides. On the right, it’s because they see her as stepping out of her place and having the nerve to want to be powerful. On the left, I think it’s a combination of misogyny (for some people) and hugely high expectations for others (mostly feminists). I think progressive feminists will often give male candidates a pass that they won’t give to female ones. There’s a little voice that says, “look, he’s a man, it’s unreasonable to expect him to be perfect on every issue,” but if it’s a woman, we expect her to know better and it feels like a betrayal if she doesn’t.

    I haven’t picked a candidate yet. What I want to see from all of them, whoever they are, is what their vision for this country and the world is. What would they do with the mess they’re going to inherit from the current dope-in-chief? Whose rights are they going to stand up for, and whose won’t they? I think it remains to be seen who will emerge as the best candidate.

  8. Hilary lost my vote — for her and, to be honest, for every other Democrat for years to come — years ago during the Brooklyn Museum “elephant dung” incident. She wrote a letter to the museum I was working for at the time, thanking us for our support of the Brooklyn Museum and noting that though she found Ofili’s “Holy Virgin Mary” “disgusting”, she and Bill supported the artist’s right to free expression. Her description of the work made it clear that she had never, ever seen the work, and therefore could have no honest feelings about it, and thus her interest in the incident was *not* related to free speech/artistic expression issues but to getting herself elected (back when it was her vs. Giuliani).

    Her willingness to sell poor women down the river should come as no particular suprise, either — she was, after all, Wal-Mart’s first female boardmember, which job requires a certain willingness to profit from the exploitation of the poor.

  9. I think HRC actually did have principles and would have been a good president before the DNC got its claws into her (yeah, I’m one of those). If she wins the nomination, I’m not sure I see any reason to vote for her unless she’s running against someone like Frist or Brownback. I actually think her situation is a lot like Diane Feinstein’s: both from safely liberal states which will, however, vote for Republicans now and then. Feinstein has been a principled politician, while HRC has betrayed every one of her supposed beliefs to set up a run for president.

    But then, it’s hard for me not to despise anyone with that last name. All that matters to me about Bubba’s presidency is six letters: Rwanda.

  10. I hope Hilary doesn’t get the nomination. Two reasons… first of all, she’s so very, very polarizing. I think both sides of the political spectrum have got to stop screaming at each other and try to work together to improve anything, and so many people hate her that I don’t think she’d be able to bring people together. Also… I really want a president who will address health care access issues in this country, and I don’t think many people will trust her on health care after her last attempt.

  11. ivy–

    I agree with your concern about polarization only to the extent that she would serve to motivate the conservative base more so than almost any other possible Dem candidate, and maybe not serve to do the same for the Dem base, in light of her lukewarm reaction to various forms of executive overreach and the Iraq war. That said, in terms of being a “partisan” figure, don’t let that be a concern. Modern Republicans are not going to reach across the aisle to anyone, be it Hillary or Obama or any other Democratic candidate. “Both sides” don’t need to stop screaming. The Dems need to start or the Republicans need to stop. It is not on the Democratic candidate for any office to unshit the political and policy bed that Republicans have made for the country.

  12. I’d rather Sen Clinton didn’t get the Democratic nomination, but I’m disappointed many people (not blaming Jill here, I’m talking about the MSM) see her as the only viable female candidate, or even the most viable one. What about Napolitano? Sibelius? They’re good administrators, they’re executives rather than legislators, which Americans like, and they’re not compromised by long voting records in a high-profile venue like the US Senate. The Dems have never done real well with senators, but governors sell.

    That said, if Clinton is the nominee, I’ll happily vote for her. Most Dem presidents are more moderate than we progressives would like, she is tenacious, and I’d rather see the next president be a left-leaning woman than have it be any man (except perhaps Obama, who has been profiled in Time and Harper’s both in the last week). Does anyone really believe the men who are considering runs (Warner, Kerry again, Biden…) will be any better feminists than HIllary?

  13. Jeff in TX — I’m actually less concerned with the way the right hates her than with the way much of the left hates her. I’m a big lefty, but pragmatic to a fault — and I’d have trouble voting for her, though I would do it in a general election. But IMO the democratic party needs to stop stomping on its left portion and find somebody who would be acceptable, though I know (and most people know) they wouldn’t be perfect, to the majority of the true left. The belief that anybody acceptable to the left won’t be acceptable to the middle is in my personal view completely wrong and based on a very narrow view of politics, and it’s something we really need to get over.

  14. the inportant thing is not to make the mistake of holding Hillary to higher standards becuase she is a woman. I think some of us are doin this, een though it is not fair at all. That is, becuase Hillary is a woman, we expect her feminist credentials to hav to blow the other candidated feminist credentials out of the water, and not just edge them out like we’d expect from a male dmocratic candidate.

  15. Actually, Carpenter, I just want her to be progressive, and she’s centrist. That’s my problem with her and all the other centrist Dems.

  16. I agree with everyone else that the Iraq War is a deal-breaker. I also have never thought Hillary was much of a feminist. Basically, she quit her job and gave up her last name (which she had insisted on keeping at the time of her marriage) to further her husband’s political career. Then, she achieved a Senate seat without any relevant experience (i.e., she had never worked at any level of government for any length of time), based solely on her husband’s and her name recognition (and victimhood status conferred on her by Monica Lewinsky), knocking out a true feminist, Nita Lowey, who was going to run for the seat before Hillary pushed her out of the way. Her personal history is anti-feminist, not feminist– she has achieved everything she achieved, since quitting her job, through her status as Mrs. Bill Clinton.

    Further, in what way does Hillary have any sort of a feminist record, beyond the standard invocations of being pro-choice, etc., that you can say of any Democratic Party politician? I haven’t seen it.

    Look, Pakistan elected Benazir Bhutto. It’s no sign of feminist achievement at all to elect a female relative of a powerful male politician. I want a woman president. But I want a woman president who paid her dues as a politiican and didn’t take the fast way up by virtue of her marriage.

  17. I ask myself a few very simple questions when I’m evaluating politicians:

    1) Do they seem genuine?

    Simple enough question – it really boils down to whether their words and body language are consistent.

    2) Are they presenting a vision for the nation that looks beyond their lust for power?

    Not so simple question. Far too many politicians say what they think will win votes. Vision that reaches beyond the here and now is rarely articulated.

    3) Can I support what they represent?

    After that, I really don’t care about much else – race, gender, hair color, whatever – doesn’t really matter to me. Since I’m in Canada {and no, I didn’t vote for Mini-Shrub and his minions last election!}, I only get a very superficial sense of Hillary’s campaigning – what’s your impression of her?

  18. From the article about Codepink attending a ‘progressive’ rally where Hillary was a keynote speaker and Code Pink was duped into compromise that later turned out to be a lie:

    “We were amazed to discover that the organizers of Take Back America treat dissent the same way that the organizers at a Bush rally do,” said Ms. Murphy. “Most progressives do not support Hillary Clinton, and stifling our legitimate, heartfelt opposition to her pro-war position is an outrage. I guess we have to take back ‘Take Back America.’”

    Which sums up to me the very cynicism and classism present in both parties. I don’t see the machines very different in their core driving force. Dems or Republicans, politics is a playground for the elite and the well connected.

    Bill Clinton, as much as I find him a charismatic and smart man, had sold his soul for his drive to power long ago. The turned his back on poor mothers and children and now Hillary has turned her back on poor young men and women who make up most of the military.

    Couple that with the fact that most of disenfranchised don’t even bother to vote as they feel so invisible and powerless that voting seems a waste of time. And I feel hard pressed to disagree.

    The Democrats have by proxy become the party of people of color, the poor, the disabled, the disenfranchised. They found themselves wearing that cloak during the FDR administration with his programs and during Johnson years the Dems let the dixiecrats leave rather than submit to the old guard.

    But that coat has grown threadbare and is beginning to reveal the real body on which it hangs. In truth, the body is lily white, classist and elite with no common dirt or color to be seen anywhere. And frankly, I believe many within the Democratic party have longed for the day when they can shed the coat entirely and get on with the issues that are important to them which just happen to contradict those labeled as “special interests”. Yes, that’s what I believe, that the Hillary’s and the rest would be just as happy to dump whatever constituency does not serve their immediate needs or even contradicts with their power perks.

    I other words, I don’t feel hopeful about any candidate, much less one that in her twenties was a big Goldwater fan and came up as a child of priviledge.

  19. And if she runs for president, she’ll have a lot of people who will be very willing to work very hard for her.

    And even more who would be very willing to work very hard against her, I believe.

    I just want her to be progressive, and she’s centrist. That’s my problem with her and all the other centrist Dems.

    Elections are won in the center. Would you vote Republican, or not vote at all, if the Democratic nominee isn’t far enough to the left?

    Conservatives hate her, progressive think she’s too far right, and centrists don’t seem too fond of her either. Doesn’t sound like a good candidate to me.

    If I were American, I’d support Feingold or Obama.

  20. Who else people going to vote for? She got the D, she got my vote. Christian Republicans didn’t lose any sleep over Dubya not being a churchgoer: you do what you have to. There are any number of complaints I could make about Hill, but if she’s nominated (and at this point I don’t see many possible candidates who might be any better) then I’m behind her 110%.

  21. And responding specifically to Grog, your points strike me as the height of narcissism. The idea of voting one’s conscience is what drove too many (including myself) to support Nader or stay home in 2000. Hillary’s not perfect the same way Gore wasn’t perfect: the blood of thousands is on the hands of those of us who self-righteously neglected to keep the greater of two evils out of office.

  22. I hate thinking about this because it conflicts me so badly. This’ll be my first election voting, too, so it makes me even more nervous.

    I don’t want to vote for a candidate because they’re ‘better than the alternative’ or they’re the ‘one I hate the least,’ but I’m sure that’s how I’ll have to go about it this election. There are things I like and dislike about Hilary Clinton. I think it’s unfortunate that it seems she had to kiss ass so much just because she was a woman (and god knows what other array of reasons). But the point is that she is rather unpredictable. So I don’t know.

  23. I really don’t think Hillary is being held to a higher standard as a woman at all, at least not in progressive circles. If anything, whatever cred she has comes from virtue of being a successful woman (however that success happened, and hers happened in a fashion that women were able to pull off a couple hundred years ago apart from ultimately getting elected– she was the woman behind the man, the oldest story in the book). By way of illustration, imagine she was a man– would you even be considering her? Anymore than Holy Joe or the rest of “moderate” cardboard cutouts in the Democratic ranks? She was an Iraq war supporter in a blue state who has only recently, in the face of overwhelming polls, done even a partial climb down from that support. If I had to point to a Democrat whose main problem with Bush and his expansion of the executive was that it was a Republican doing it and not a Democrat (or herself), it would be Hillary– I don’t see her having much disagreement with it on principle. A male, non-Clinton Democrat with those views would be getting run out of the party, not considered as the Great Blue Hope for 2008.

  24. I think if there was a little more of the Yale-law, first lady, It Takes a Village Hillary, and a little less senator, pro-war, banning flag burning Hillary, I’d probably have no qualms about voting for her. But if she’s gonna run, she’s gonna have to earn my vote lke everyone else.

  25. The dems would be fools to hand Hilary the nom. They’ve getting burned by this bullshit middle of the road philosophy in every race since Bush v. Gore. They suppose that the liberal-minded person’s dilemma is between voting for the democrat or voting for the republican. But this is a false dilemma. The only dilemma relevant to the dem leadership’s reasoning ought to be “vote for the democrat, or do not vote for the democrat”, the latter half of which can be accomplished by voting for a third party or staying home. Candidates like Hilary who roll over for whatever Herr Bush wants do not motivate democratic base voters to get their asses to the polls on election day. The republicans have bigotry to get them to the polls… where is our bigotry?

  26. As much as it pains me to do so I have to agree with most of the posters here. HRC cannot and probably should not win election for President. I was a big supporter back in the day (even had a Hillary Clinton fan club button in the 6th grade!) but nowadays I just cannot help but think she is a big sellout. I would vote for a female Dem. candidate in a second if I thought they were the right one but alas HRC is just not it. Also… how ridiculous is it that multiple other countries like Liberia have elected female heads of state and we can’t even seem to muster a viable candidate? P.S. have been reading for awhile and have finally managed to delurk:)

  27. I believe that Hillary is a flawed candidate, but I also believe that in our deeply flawed political system, we only get flawed candidates. Every candidate comes through a gauntlet of fund-raising, powerful lobbyists, media consultants, and the like.

    There has never been a nominated candidate as progressive as I am, so I always compromise. Always.

    I am exactly old enough to have cast my first vote for Carter’s reelection. So my vote for Bubba was the first vote I cast for a national winner. (And I’m from New Jersey, so I never got a chance to vote for my candidate of choice in our late primary.)

    I was deeply disappointed by Clinton’s centrism and his many compromises (Don’t Ask Don’t Tell??). And I have to be honest, I fell away from politics; if this is what a winner is like, what’s the point?

    Then Dubya took office and I found out what the point was.

    A compromise, centrist, smarmy Dem like Hillary will be as good and as bad a president as her husband, and I am very willing to make that compromise, because we as a nation have seen the alternative.

    Is she my first choice in primary season? No. (And living in New York now, I sometimes actually get to vote in the primary when there’s more than one contender remaining.) But I’ll pull the “D” lever on election day no matter who the “D” is.

  28. And, in case my Hillary bashing made it unclear, IF Hillary got the nomination, I would vote for her, because I vote, and I will not vote for a Republican until they have purged just about everything and everyone that currently comprises the Republican party. But I don’t think she would win. The Democrats need to win, and win with someone who actually disagrees with what has been going on in this country for the last 5 years or so.

    And yes, it is kind of amazing that we have never had a femal president, but then again it’s pretty amazing that women could not even vote until like last week. Unfortunately, I think the first female president and first black president will have one thing in common– they will be as right-wing as possible, just to overcome the “stigma” of being female or black.

  29. I want someone electable. Hillary will never be elected — you want to talk about a candidate who will absolutely galvanize the conservative base to get out and vote against her, she’s it. She has so many strikes against her, from so many sides: those who hated her husband will hate her; those who hate women will hate her; those who want an actual progressive candidate will hate her; those who opposed the war from the get go will hate her; and on it goes.

    If she didn’t inspire such visceral hatred from so many various groups, I’d overlook her not-so-progressive and not-so-feminist flaws because just being a politician basically corrupts people’s intentions. The definition of being a politician means compromise and manuevering to get support.

    Problem is her support base is so very tiny. My opposition to her stems from the belief that if she becomes the Democrat’s presidental candidate, we have just handed the election over to the Republicans, period. I prefer someone electable.

    The real problem is that there’s such a shortage of electable progressive or even Democrat candidates…gah. If the Dems capture the presidency next time, it absolutely will not be due to any particular effort on their part but because the Republicans self destructed so spectacularly that the Dems “won” by default.

    And that’s a really fucked up place to be.

  30. Raging Mod,

    Elections are won in the center. Would you vote Republican, or not vote at all, if the Democratic nominee isn’t far enough to the left?

    Depends on what particular issues the candidate was right-leaning whether I could vote Dem. If I couldn’t stomach it, I’d vote Green or write-in. Elections are not won in the center. Dems have been pandering to the center and losing spectacularly. They keep doing it, and I won’t be helping their mealy mouth agenda win.

  31. Tps12, I disagree. I can understand the frustration people concerned about the country’s direction feel when people put their votes towards the candidate of their conscience rather than the candidate who has a chance of winning. In my view, however, what’s the point of voting if you can’t even let yourself vote for the best candidate in your eyes? As long as we keep restricting ourselves to voting for major-party candidates who don’t represent us as well as small-party candidates, the current two-party system will stay in power.

    People are taking notice of the need for a system that lets in third parties, thanks to the growing percentage of registered independents; if voters allowed themselves to support the candidate that they liked the best, regardless of party, the percentage of non-Democrat/GOP votes would rise, and party system reform would actually have a chance.
    This year, I’m voting for the first time, and I’m going to vote for candidates according to their positions and ideas, not for how many votes I think they’ll get.

  32. Dems have been pandering to the center and losing spectacularly. They keep doing it, and I won’t be helping their mealy mouth agenda win.

    You can be centrist without being mealy mouthed. The Democrats recent losses have more to do with letting the Republicans dictate the terms of the debate (gay marriage, abortion, culture war, etc) than with the weakness of centrist policies. Nobody knows what they stand for other than “we’re not Republicans” (although I believe that will be sufficient this November).

    Bill Clinton appealed to the center, and I think that’s why he did so well in his elections.

    When’s the last time you had a president who was truly a liberal?

  33. Back when the American population was fairly liberal, Raging Moderate – which is exactly the same situation now (on most issues, the Democratic Party is right of the median American voter).

    More on-topic, there exists a Presidential contender who voted against the Iraq War and even the Patriot Act, who openly supports single-sex marriage, who tries passing health care legislation that will cause the US to imitate the way Canada got its single-payer health care system, and who has a better appeal to moderates than HRC.

  34. GHW Bush: 4 years
    Bill Clinton: 8 years
    GW Bush: 8 years

    If Hilary Clinton were to become president, we’d have had people from the same 2 families in that office for at least 24 years. I just think that’s too long for 2 families to be in charge of the presidency.

  35. There is that. yay Dynasty. not.

    also, what johanna said in 26.

    she’s a mixed bag at best, and i can’t shake the suspicion that a good part of the enthusiasm around her (such as it is) stems from a kind of, “hahaha, in your FACE, wingnuts!” impulse.

    which, nice as the thought is of a bunch of lgf/free republic types all simultaneously spontaneously combusting, i just don’t see it as worth it, of itself.

    pining for the new! improved! kickass! Gore to stage a comeback isn’t much more helpful, i guess.

    yeah, just call me “apathetic,” i suppose. sigh.

  36. also agree with anon in 31. her ratio of “galvanize the opposition” to “muster enthuiasm among the base, let alone everyone else” just isn’t good enough to make it worthwhile, imo.

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