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The report is out on Rolling Stone‘s handling of the UVA rape story, and it’s understandably awful

[Content note for rape]

On November 19, 2014, Rolling Stone published a lengthy and damning piece on the handling of sexual assault on college campuses, centering around a University of Virginia student, pseudonymously identified as “Jackie,” and her alleged gang-rape by members of one of the school’s fraternities. It was striking and stomach-turning — the attack, the response from fellow students, the response (or, more accurately, lack thereof) by university administration depicted in that story.

It was also, the world would later learn, almost entirely unsubstantiated. After the piece was examined, dissected, and criticized by numerous news outlets (including a heavily referenced examination by the Washington Post), Rolling Stone backed off of the story, first throwing Jackie under the bus by saying that “[their] trust in her was misplaced” and later revising their statement to conclude that “these mistakes are on Rolling Stone, not on Jackie.”

A new report by the Columbia School of Journalism, commissioned by Rolling Stone back in December, meticulously outlines those mistakes. Rolling Stone published the report, “‘A Rape on Campus’: What Went Wrong?“, on their Web site, with an introduction from managing editor Will Dana that included the following:

This report was painful reading, to me personally and to all of us at Rolling Stone. It is also, in its own way, a fascinating document ­– a piece of journalism, as Coll describes it, about a failure of journalism. With its publication, we are officially retracting ‘A Rape on Campus.’ We are also committing ourselves to a series of recommendations about journalistic practices that are spelled out in the report. We would like to apologize to our readers and to all of those who were damaged by our story and the ensuing fallout, including members of the Phi Kappa Psi fraternity and UVA administrators and students. Sexual assault is a serious problem on college campuses, and it is important that rape victims feel comfortable stepping forward. It saddens us to think that their willingness to do so might be diminished by our failings.

It’s pretty painful reading in general, frankly.

Before we move on, a note: The Charlottesville Police Department has said that, following investigation, “there is no substantive base to support the account alleged in the Rolling Stone article.” Their investigation has been suspended, not closed, pending any new evidence. This does not mean that Jackie flat-out lied. She may have misremembered things, she may have been mistaken about things. Or it’s entirely possible that she did lie. [ETA: To quote the Charlottesville chief of police, “That doesn’t mean that something terrible didn’t happen to Jackie… we’re just not able to gather sufficient facts to determine what it is.” Jackie made meritless and specific accusations that cause a lot of people a lot of suffering — that’s unavoidable. But painting her as an out-and-out malicious fabulist makes her a convenient scapegoat for the journalistic failures that never determined what actually did happen before broadcasting it to the world.] Without a definitive statement from her on the subject, it’s hard to call. But unsubstantiated does seem a safe way to go at this point, and regardless of the veracity of Jackie’s claim, that unsubstantiation is at the center of the entire disastrous Rolling Stone article’s disastrousness.

The rest of the things to note: No one has benefited from Rolling Stone‘s massive and far-reaching journalistic cockup. Moreover, no one has not been harmed by it. Not the University of Virginia, which, though far from perfect in its handling of campus sexual assault, had been making efforts to better support victims before the article was published — in fact, one of the other students writer Sabrina Erdely interviewed and decided not to feature in her story had successfully pursued a claim through UVA’s administration. Not Phi Kappa Psi or the students therein. Not the Greek system as a whole that now has an example to pull out when they want to claim that everyone’s out to get them. Not other universities that are more negligent with rape culture on their campus and can now say, “See? We try to help address sexual assault, and this is what happens to us.” Epidemic, schmepidemic.

And not victims of campus sexual assault. Definitely not those. Because now the entire subject of campus rape has a big asterisk on it. Now “but what about the Rolling Stone thing?” is available for casting doubt on rape allegations or on university mismanagement of rape allegations. The discussion of false rape allegations (estimated by several studies at between 2 and 8 percent of allegations, and we’ll look more closely at such statistics in a future post) now has one major, derailing example. “Yes, but look at the Rolling Stone thing.” Yes, the Rolling Stone thing. Now look at the hundreds of rapes that aren’t unsubstantiated. We can’t, and shouldn’t, deny the existence of unsubstantiated rape accusations — but every time one comes to the public eye in such a sensational way, rape victims are the ones who suffer.

In their review of Rolling Stone‘s cascade of bad decisions, the authors of the Columbia report say this:

Yet the editors and Erdely have concluded that their main fault was to be too accommodating of Jackie because she described herself as the survivor of a terrible sexual assault. Social scientists, psychologists and trauma specialists who support rape survivors have impressed upon journalists the need to respect the autonomy of victims, to avoid re-traumatizing them and to understand that rape survivors are as reliable in their testimony as other crime victims. These insights clearly influenced Erdely, [principal editor Sean] Woods and Dana. “Ultimately, we were too deferential to our rape victim; we honored too many of her requests in our reporting,” Woods said. “We should have been much tougher, and in not doing that, we maybe did her a disservice.”

Erdely added: “If this story was going to be about Jackie, I can’t think of many things that we would have been able to do differently. … Maybe the discussion should not have been so much about how to accommodate her but should have been about whether she would be in this story at all.” Erdely’s reporting led her to other, adjudicated cases of rape at the university that could have illustrated her narrative, although none was as shocking and dramatic as Jackie’s.

Their main fault was to be too accommodating of Jackie. Now we’re back to “misplaced” trust. The complete journalistic meltdown on the part of Erdely and the editorial staff above her was all out of an effort to protect Jackie’s feelings.

Yet Erdely wouldn’t have needed to re-traumatize Jackie in the process of talking to her colleagues at the aquatic center where she and her alleged rapist were lifeguards, or to the three friends Jackie said she talked to immediately after the rape (and whom Erdely depicted in a rather unflattering light in her article). (“In retrospect, I wish somebody had pushed me harder” to talk to them, she told Columbia in a convenient abrogation of responsibility.) She wouldn’t have needed Jackie’s cooperation to give sufficient details to Phi Kappa Psi for them to be able to do their own investigation into their part in the alleged assault. Jackie refused to identify her alleged rapist, but she didn’t make her participation in the article contingent on Erdely not contacting him — but Erdely was having trouble tracking him down, and she was two weeks away from her deadline, and so she decided to go forward with a story built around an unnamed man who, for all she knew, could have lived exclusively in Jackie’s mind.

Erdely’s reporting led her to other, adjudicated cases of rape at the university that could have illustrated her narrative, although none was as shocking and dramatic as Jackie’s. Now we’re talking.

At this point, it doesn’t matter whether Jackie was lying or was telling the truth or hallucinated the whole thing. Without having all of the story, Erdely had no story, but a no-story story was better than none at all when she was up against a deadline on such a career-makingly sensationalistic article. So she ran with it. And the rest is history.

Without knowing exactly what Jackie’s mindset was throughout the research and writing of A Rape on Campus, it’s hard to say whether or not Erdely took advantage of her to get the story. But it’s pretty clear that Erdely took advantage of every actual victim of campus sexual assault to get it. And not just Erdely — anyone in a decision-making position at Rolling Stone could have pushed to kill the story, or insisted that Erdely back away from Jackie’s story and concentrate on the numerous accounts of campus rape that were less “shocking and dramatic,” less “strong, powerful, provocative,” but more substantiated. They didn’t, and now every rape allegation that’s dismissed because “well, remember the Rolling Stone thing” is on them.

This doesn’t mean that every man (or woman) accused of rape is, by default, guilty. But it’s possible to take an alleged victim’s accusations seriously and not dismiss them out of hand as “buyer’s remorse” or a vengeful ex or a beg for attention. It’s not only possible but necessary to investigate fully — as the Charlottesville police did in determining that Jackie’s accusation was unsubstantiated, and as Erdely absolutely did not do in her reporting. Rape victims deserve to be taken seriously, not to be taken advantage of to vilify men, vilify rape victims or to publish a potentially career-making story before the next issue closes.

I think the most telling quote in Columbia’s report comes from Coco McPherson, the chief of Rolling Stone‘s fact-checking department, which was the source of several questions that were discarded higher up in the editorial process: “I one hundred percent do not think that the policies that we have in place failed. I think decisions were made around those because of the subject matter.”

I give Rolling Stone points for commissioning a third-party examination of their journalistic disaster, and for publishing the report despite the shameful portrait of their incompetence it delivers. Now I want to see what comes next. And I don’t mean the changes in their editorial process, because as McPherson noted above, the breakdown was not that it wasn’t edited correctly but that the editors didn’t care whether or not it was correct. I want to see what Rolling Stone will do to help negate the perception of a rash of false accusations that will arise/has arisen from this one unsubstantiated case. The rate of false accusations prior to November 19, 2014, was estimated at 2 to 8 percent, and today it’s 2 to 8 percent — that fact didn’t change with the knowledge that Jackie wasn’t on the level in her account of rape. The conversation has changed, though, and not for the better or the clearer.


84 thoughts on The report is out on <em>Rolling Stone</em>‘s handling of the UVA rape story, and it’s understandably awful

  1. “The rate of false accusations prior to November 19, 2014, was estimated at 2 to 8 percent, and today it’s 2 to 8 percent”

    No. The percentage of accusations that have been proven to be false is estimated at between 2 and 8 percent. This does not imply that the rate of false accusations is between 2 and 8 percent. It means that no fewer than between 2 and percent are false. To know the actual rate of false accusations, you need to know the percentage that are proven to be be true. There is an enormous amount of uncertainty in accusations and many cannot be classified as either true or false.

    1. [QUOTE]To know the actual rate of false accusations, you need to know the percentage that are proven to be be true. There is an enormous amount of uncertainty in accusations and many cannot be classified as either true or false.[/QUOTE]

      Perhaps it’s because it’s late at night, or I’m being dense, but it appears to me that these two sentences directly contradict each other.

        1. 3 categories:

          (i) an assertion is true; (ii) it is false; (iii) its truth is unknown.

          For many kinds of assertions, the state of our knowledge is that x% are true, y% are false, and z% might be true or false.

          Knowing that y% are provably false doesn’t tell us how many are actually false, because some of the z’s are also actually false.

          If we want to make a claim about the maximum that might possibly be false – like, “No more than y% are false” – then we have to know the number that are provably true and subtract that number from 100.

          In the case of rape allegations, the studies that produce the % stats focus on determining the number of accusations that are false. They don’t try to determine the number of accusations that are true.

          For example,the study reported here,

          http://www.icdv.idaho.gov/conference/handouts/False-Allegations.pdf

          found that 5.9% of 136 accusations were false. Only accusations that were shown to be false by strong evidence – either admissions or extensive investigation revealing falsification – were coded as false. But the study did not try to determine the percentage that were true. Instead, the investigators created a category of “case proceeded,” meaning a criminal case or disciplinary action went forward, and an intermediate category called “case did not proceed,” which combined many possible reasons that an accusation did not result in a trial – some of them consistent with a false accusation. Almost 45% of the accusations were coded in this category. So the study does not tell us the rate of accusations that were actually false. It only tells us that at least 5.9% were false.

          More generally, it’s clear that the number of provably true allegations is many times the number of provably false allegations. But there are a lot of allegations that can’t be proven. Certainly most of those allegations are true, but not all of them, and we don’t have any data on how many are not true. So the 2-8 percent number is a floor, not a ceiling. The ceiling may not be much higher, but we really don’t know.

  2. I don’t see how one can urge Rolling Stone to take Jackie’s accusations seriously, and on the other hand maintain the possibility that they were just a hallucination. And yet this article seems to be attempting to do just that.

  3. Please stop insisting that this thoroughly debunked allegation has merit. Doing that simply gives squanders any credibility we have and gives powerful ammunition to those seeking to silence actual survivors, and to push the narrative that “feminists don’t care to distinguish truth from falsehood.” When you print statements like this: “This does not mean that Jackie flat-out lied. She may have misremembered things, she may have been mistaken about things”, it harms our credibility irreparably. There is incontrovertible evidence that she lied. The main she accuses of orchestrating the assault does not exist, not in this fraternity, not in this university, not in this country, not in this universe. “Haven Monahan” was an fictional creation she invented using false gmail accounts and proxy text apps, well in advance of the alleged assault, to foster jealousy in her close friend whom she was apparently interested in. When that didn’t succeed, she called the male friend (Ryan) to say that “Haven” had arranged this vicious assault, shortly after which she had “Haven” email Ryan a love letter about how perfect he is for her. These are fabrications, lies. When we refuse to acknowledge something so clear, we sacrifice the credibility we desperately need as a movement to fight for real survivors. Please, please, please reconsider your approach to this.

    1. I apologize. There was an entire quote from the Charlottesville chief of police that was supposed to go there that better clarifies my position on the matter. But you’re right, supporting Jackie’s story as reported without question is damaging to rape survivors whose stories will now be thrown into question, and I apologize for contributing to that.

      1. Thanks for acknowledging that. The tragedy is that there are SO many real incidents of campus rape, many of which have resulted in convictions. Why on earth did RS not cover one of these more verified accounts to examine the issues on campus that allow this to continue??? The sad answer is that RS cynically chose the most salacious story it could find (being thrown through a plate glass table, being assaulted on the broken glass, etc. etc.) because sensationalism sells. And in the rush to sell, they neglected the most basic fact checking — if the ringleader “Haven” existed, if there was a party on this date, or if there were even any pledges (who would be the ones involved in such an “initiation”) at the time…. And so, they managed to find the needle in the haystack, a false report (2% of all cases), which they then put on the national stage.

        As a person of color, I feel the other dimension to this is that social justice work also demands some attention to the fact that we have a troubled history in the US of a criminal justice system that incarcerates more human beings than any other nation in the world, and a particularly ugly past in falsely accusing people of color (as in the Scottsboro 9 case, or cases of private violence like Emmett Till). The systemic violations at Ferguson catalogued in the DOJ report are painful reminders that due process violations are not a thing of the past. It’s true that a rich fraternity like the one at UVA has a different profile as a historically elite/white social institution, but if we want to defend due process, we have to have to be consistent no matter who is concerned. And that means fact checking, rigor, and thoroughness even as – or especially as – we raise the profile of these attacks.

        1. So much this. I’ve always felt a really uncomfortable tension between the feminist goal of insisting false rape accusations are almost unthinkably rare with the history of false rape accusations being weaponized against POC and particularly black men in this country. Not saying I know how to resolve that tension in a productive way, but I thin it’s there.

          The best meta-study I know of is Rumney (2006), and what it found was that the real number was almost unknowable given how bad many methodologies were. He more or less concluded that there was no way to construct a good methodology because you had to make so many guesses and assumptions about what was ‘false’ versus just ‘not proven.’

          One number that is false, and we should stop using, is the ‘1 in 5 women in college’ statistic. For one, it’s just made up; it relies on a 2007 survey with serious self-selection biases and methodological problems, and then it ignores more recent and more rigorous work that suggests the actual rate is about 7% of women and 2% of men.

          For another, though, and more importantly, it’s a bit of unexamined class privilege; the rate of sexual assault for 18-22 year olds who don’t attend college is at least 10% higher than for those who do. The one-in-five statistic has helped lead to a panic around college sexual assault, which while an incredibly serious problem and deserving of attention, does not contain the population of people most vulnerable to sexual assault. The myopic focus on college campuses erases a ton of victims, and the bad numbers are part of that.

  4. Their investigation has been suspended, not closed, pending any new evidence. This does not mean that Jackie flat-out lied. She may have misremembered things, she may have been mistaken about things. Or it’s entirely possible that she did lie.

    Morality should require folks to use the same standards w/r/t Jackie as they use w/r/t rape accusations. Judging from many posts I have read, most folks are like me: if the evidence against the rapists was as strong as the evidence against Jackie, they would not hesitate to conclude that a rape had taken place.

    Therefore, we should apply the same standards to Jackie. And IMO, the only reasonable conclusion is that Jackie is, and was, lying.

    I may be wrong, just like I may be wrong when someone gets convicted of rape. But it’s the best evidence we have.

    “The rate of false accusations prior to November 19, 2014, was estimated at 2 to 8 percent, and today it’s 2 to 8 percent”

    This is not actually true. It’s just a lower bound.

    What that actually means is that the rape of PROVEN TO BE FALSE accusations is somewhere in the range of 8 percent (FYI, the 2% figure appears to have been made up some years back.)

    “Proven to be false” usually means that after they concluded a rape didn’t happen, and in contravention to the vast majority of writing w/r/t rape accusations, the investigator actually spent time trying to prove that the accuser lied.

    This is very rare. Most places don’t spend a lot of time trying to make rape reporting MORE difficult, and most places don’t usually pursue these. (As an example: Does anyone think that Jackie wouldn’t be guilty of making a false report under a preponderance standard? Has anyone noticed the lack of any charges against her? That’s sensible if the goal is to encourage rape reporting, but it serves to reinforce the “lower bound” concept.)

    If that doesn’t make sense, think of it a different way:

    The fact that someone doesn’t get convicted does not automatically support a conclusion that they were not a rapist. People can (and do!) lie without getting caught: “lack of proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt” is not the same as “proof of innocence beyond a reasonable doubt.”

    Now, apply the same logic in the other direction:

    The fact that someone doesn’t get charged with a false report or have a formal finding of falsity/perjury does not automatically support a conclusion that they were not lying or making a false charge. People can (and do) lie without getting caught: “lack of proof of falsity” is not the same as “proof of truth.”

    We have no evidence that i’m aware of to conclude any particular number, but you should always remember that the low percentage is just a lower bound.

    And unsurprisingly: The same thing that makes rape so difficult to deal with in court also makes this number very difficult to calculate. There’s a huge gray area of “we don’t precisely know,” which fills in the area between 8% and 92%, smack in between the proven-true convictions and the proven-false reports.

    1. I can always count on you to show up and say something victim-blaming-adjacent. #consistency

      For funsies, can you show me where she reported anything to the police? The article linked in the OP says

      Police Chief Timothy J. Longo on Monday afternoon said the police department had multiple meetings with “Jackie” — the woman who claimed she was gang raped at a fraternity party — and that she declined to speak about the alleged incident or provide any information about it.

      Can you make a false report and commit perjury if you don’t speak to police?

      1. I can always count on you to show up and say something victim-blaming-adjacent.

        Aren’t the victims in this case all the people Jackie lied about? I hate prolonged discussions of false rape accusations as much as the next halfway decent human being but in this case it’s become very clear that this was an elaborately fabricated story, and that she put a lot of effort into the hoax- to the point of creating fake social media profiles/e-mail accounts to sell it.

        1. She sent herself fake e-mails, made calls to herself from internet telephone numbers, and used the name of a high school classmate as her alleged ‘attacker.’

          She objectively made the whole thing up. I won’t speculate as to why, but she’s a liar, and she damaged a lot of people, and calling that assertion ‘victim blaming’ is really missing the point.

        2. She objectively made the whole thing up.

          Objectively?

          You believe she made the whole thing up. I believe that she may have been raped and that she (objectively) lied about some things. That doesn’t mean she wasn’t raped or otherwise traumatized.

          I have PTSD. This weekend, I was out with my boyfriend. He turned around for a second to say goodbye to his friend, and I was suddenly surrounded by a group of large, muscular men, one of whom put his arm around me. Maybe it was innocent, but I can’t figure out why they felt the need to surround me like that, though I’m relatively sure the guy who put his arm around me didn’t know it would cause a panic attack. I end up losing giant portions of the rest of the night because my brain is luckily all, “Fuck it – you’ve had enough to deal with.”

          I sat down with my shrink yesterday to talk through Friday night and I did my best with what I was relatively certain had happened, but even then, I wasn’t confident I was right. I ended up having to ask my boyfriend last night. He (thankfully) confirmed what I remembered about the triggering event, the three other things I remember about the night, brought back a couple of other memories I browned out, and filled in the rest.

          I’ve had my memory altered as a result of trauma in the past. I can’t conclusively state Jackie maliciously implicated anyone and that she wasn’t actually gang raped.

        3. Objectively might be too strong, but she certainly wasn’t raped by the person/people she claimed she was (some didn’t exist, the others never met her). And the lengths she went to in order to create the deception- including all the aforementioned fake phone calls, sending harassing messages to her friends supposedly from her rapist that were actually from an e-mail account she created, etc, go a lot farther than just mis-remembering details or losing memory as a result of PTSD.

          I just don’t have any sympathy. As a survivor myself, I put people like her only barely above rapists- though that’s obviously a personal, subjective assessment of moral status.

        4. Oh, and when she created a fake profile to impersonate the man she claimed raped her, she used the photograph of a high school classmate (who didn’t even go to UVA). I mean, that’s unbelievably reprehensible. If I was him I’d sue the shit out of her.

        5. I too originally thought this was a case of PTSD causing her to lose time. But that doesn’t line up with the fake emails and calls from the internet phone. Her recent actions show intent to misinform.

    2. PrettyAmiable
      April 7, 2015 at 11:52 am | Permalink | Reply
      I can always count on you to show up and say something victim-blaming-adjacent.

      That would require that Jackie be a victim. Do you think she is?

      Surely you can’t conclude that talking about Jackie is “victim-blaming” unless you believe that she is actually a victim.

      Do you? if so, on what basis?

      Because otherwise it looks like you’re trying to use the “don’t talk about inconvenient facts you victim-blaming person you” approach, which doesn’t really work with me.

        1. I can’t conclusively state Jackie maliciously implicated anyone and that she wasn’t actually gang raped

          Sure. I can’t conclusively state that either.

          Of course, I can’t conclusively state that EVER IN ANY SCENARIO, unless I was personally a witness.

          The best that I can do is to conclude what is reasonably likely, and to go with it. That doesn’t conflict with remembering that the guess may be wrong.

          Is it theoretically possible that Jackie was actually raped? Sure. Is it reasonably likely based on the data which we currently have? No. Is it theoretically possible that all of the data inadvertently misrepresents reality? Sure. Is it reasonably likely that Jackie is a liar? Yes.

          I think I–and you–owe it to society to apply some sort of similar analysis to both sides. Like I said (and I have no idea why you would call this “victim blaming”)
          if the evidence against the rapists was as strong as the evidence against Jackie, [I] would not hesitate to conclude that a rape had taken place.

          Perhaps you think it’s “victim blaming” to acknowledge the “data isn’t always right” part when it comes to BOTH sides? Or “victim blaming” to apply any sort of equivalence to that analysis?

          I admit that view is depressingly common. But it’s antithetical to my beliefs and my profession.

        2. if the evidence against the rapists was as strong as the evidence against Jackie, [I] would not hesitate to conclude that a rape had taken place.

          Suppose there are two bags, which you cannot see the contents of. Bag one has 10 red and 30 blue balls, while bowl #2 has 20 of each. Let’s say you the pick a bag at random and then draw a ball. If the ball is blue, how probable is it that you picked it out of bag number 1?

          I’ll let you work it out for yourself, but believe it or not it’s pretty solid mathematically evidence that if we want to behave rationally, we should require more evidence to believe a rape accusation is false than that it’s true (we meaning not a jury, but rather an informal group of people hanging out on the Internet).

        3. 1) I said victim-blaming adjacent. Maybe you can stop beating your straw man.

          2) You’ve defended on these boards laws that are morally and ethically bankrupt on the basis of your profession – maybe you shouldn’t hold that up like some kind of shield against thinking critically anymore, at least not to me.

          3) Everyone lies. Everyone. She absolutely lied about aspects of what happened that night. It doesn’t mean that she automatically lied about being assaulted. Just because so much of the slimy shit that happens in the courtroom relies on your ability to make defendents seem uncredible doesn’t mean you have to fall into those same logical fails in your day to day life.

        4. if we want to behave rationally, we should require more evidence to believe a rape accusation is false than that it’s true

          Yes, that is correct; I never said otherwise. I am sorry that my rhetoric was confusing to you, but this was mostly about pointing out the ridiculous continued viewing of jackie as a “victim.”

          PrettyAmiable
          April 7, 2015 at 3:22 pm | Permalink
          1) I said victim-blaming adjacent. Maybe you can stop beating your straw man.

          Oh, adjacent. OK, then. FFS. Stop being an asshole adjacent. If you don’t want to be tagged for ridiculous use of victim blaming, use a different damn term than “victim blaming.”

          2) You’ve defended on these boards laws that are morally and ethically bankrupt on the basis of your profession – maybe you shouldn’t hold that up like some kind of shield against thinking critically anymore, at least not to me.

          [shrug] I’m not especially concerned by your moral judgment, but in all honesty I have no idea what you’re referring to specifically, or why you would think it is relevant here, or why you think that this has anything to do with my ability to think critically.

          3) Everyone lies. Everyone.

          Yes.

          She absolutely lied about aspects of what happened that night.

          Yes.

          It doesn’t mean that she automatically lied about being assaulted.

          No. Nothing is “automatic.” But it makes it much, much, more likely.

          Everyone lies, but not in the same way. Most people don’t lie seriously, and repeatedly, and make reports on their lies, and do all that other stuff. When people do, we call them “lying liars” and we tend not to believe much that they way. At all. Jackie is one of those.

          Just because so much of the slimy shit that happens in the courtroom relies on your ability to make defendents seem uncredible doesn’t mean you have to fall into those same logical fails in your day to day life.

          This isn’t really what I do, but no matter: how the hell is this a logical fail?

          Lying liars gonna lie. It’s true if they’re 15, 50, or 100 years old. It has nothing to do with logic, though. You can’t ever logically conclude that someone “is lying” unless you know that to be true. But you can rationally conclude that they’re probably lying, for good reason.

        5. Oh, adjacent. OK, then. FFS. Stop being an asshole adjacent. If you don’t want to be tagged for ridiculous use of victim blaming, use a different damn term than “victim blaming.”

          …I did. Sorry, haaave you not learned nuance? That words mean things? How’s this: “You’re a perpetrator of rape culture.” Same idea as “victim-blaming adjacent.”

          I’m not especially concerned by your moral judgment, but in all honesty I have no idea what you’re referring to specifically, or why you would think it is relevant here, or why you think that this has anything to do with my ability to think critically.

          I was referring to your silent flounce on abused women
          leaving their abusive spouses with children because that’s not what the law says and the law is always right. While we’re on the subject of shit that isn’t relevant, your profession isn’t always relevant. Maaaybe you should stop using it as a shield as I mentioned before?

          Lying liars gonna lie. It’s true if they’re 15, 50, or 100 years old. It has nothing to do with logic, though. You can’t ever logically conclude that someone “is lying” unless you know that to be true. But you can rationally conclude that they’re probably lying, for good reason.

          The same way rape victims go down because lawyers imply that they frequently have wanted sex, so they must always want sex, including whenever they get raped. It’s logically flawed, relies on the assumption that the jury is stupid, and is slimy as fuck. And illogical.

        6. PrettyAmiable
          April 8, 2015 at 10:00 am | Permalink
          How’s this: “You’re a perpetrator of rape culture.”

          Better, actually. It’s ridiculous enough that I’d rather have it out in the open and deal with it.

          If talking about facts makes me a “rape culture perpetrator” then I’m OK with that. If you use the same analysis, does that mean you’re a perpetrator of lies, deceit, false accusations, and public pillorying of innocents? You OK with that? I don’t see that as my usual conversational style, but this is getting ridiculous.

          The same way rape victims go down because lawyers imply that they frequently have wanted sex, so they must always want sex,

          Rape victims go down because it is incredibly hard to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt without a lot of physical evidence, and because the physical evidence for a rape is, usually, not the foundation of the case.

          If you want the best analogy for rape that I’ve ever been able to think of: Criminal fraud. Which–like rape–is next to impossible to prove for a lot of basic fraud unless you wire-tap someone, or have a ton of incriminating stuff in writing, or have some purportedly-neutral snitch who testifies. That’s because–like rape–a lot of the claims (selling, loaning, buying, etc.) are also often NON-fraudulent.

          It’s logically flawed,

          Er. Why? You keep saying it’s illogical, but saying it doesn’t make it so, and you aren’t explaining.

          relies on the assumption that the jury is stupid,

          No, it doesn’t.

          As a GENERAL RULE, people tend to be pretty much the same people on Tuesday afternoon as they were on Tuesday morning. They tend to like most of the same things, do most of the same things, speak to the same people, and so on.

          Do you disagree?

          I have difficulty believing that you don’t accept that in your daily life. Maybe I’m wrong: maybe you don’t pat your best friend on the back as you come up behind them, because they might have decided to hate you since breakfast. Maybe you don’t kiss your partner without asking first, even if you did it the night before, for the same reason. Maybe you treat every single person as a “new individual” each time you meet them. I kind of doubt it, though.

          That is because you are probably a smart person. It is NOT because you are stupid.

          Juries are like you. Juries use those same rules. They just don’t make a special exception for rape, like you seem to be doing.

          So if Ann and Bob were living together, sharing money for food, and having consensual sex 3 times a week for the last 6 months, and a jury is asked to decide:

          -was someone trespassing when they came into the house? Had they been told to leave?
          -was someone stealing when they took $2 from their partner’s wallet to buy some coffee?
          -was the $5000 extra that someone has paid to help with expenses over the past six months a gift, or a loan?
          -Did one party rape the other when they both returned home, drunk, after a party?

          The jury will use the same analysis for ALL of their interactions: If there are claims from one party against another, are they true? Are they biased? Are they exaggerated? Are they a means of getting back for a nasty breakup? Do they match prior behavior? And so on.

          It’s not a pro-rape rule; it is an application of a general rule.

          It does make rapes really hard to prove. So people (like you) argue that using general rules is “slimy” and “rape-y” and all sorts of other shit. But that’s wrong; it isn’t the reason behind it.

          and is slimy as fuck. And illogical.

          Again with the illogical.
          Are you actually serious? Let’s see:

          Some dude lies to you on Monday, and gets caught flatly lying on Tuesday, and promises that he’ll do something on Wednesday but doesn’t, and then “accidentally forgets I swear” on Thursday, and “must have misspoken” when you catch him out lying on Friday…

          And then Saturday comes along. And you need someone you can rely on, who will tell you the truth.

          Are you going to trust the lying dude?

      1. That would require that Jackie be a victim. Do you think she is?

        Surely you can’t conclude that talking about Jackie is “victim-blaming” unless you believe that she is actually a victim.

        Do you? if so, on what basis?

        Because otherwise it looks like you’re trying to use the “don’t talk about inconvenient facts you victim-blaming person you” approach, which doesn’t really work with me.

        Did you not say…

        If that doesn’t make sense, think of it a different way:

        The fact that someone doesn’t get convicted does not automatically support a conclusion that they were not a rapist. People can (and do!) lie without getting caught: “lack of proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt” is not the same as “proof of innocence beyond a reasonable doubt.”

        Now, apply the same logic in the other direction:

        The fact that someone doesn’t get charged with a false report or have a formal finding of falsity/perjury does not automatically support a conclusion that they were not lying or making a false charge. People can (and do) lie without getting caught: “lack of proof of falsity” is not the same as “proof of truth.”

        If so, then it’s your own fault that Pretty Amiable thinks you were victim blame as you made several typos in which you misspelt ‘Jackie’ as ‘someone.’ If these weren’t typos then, yes this is certainly, as she said, ‘victim-blaming adjacent,’ because it’s not merely about ‘Jackie,’ it is about rape victims in general and which percentage of them are liars. But, I don’t have any evidence that’s what you meant so I won’t jump to any conclusions. I’ll also be nice and presume that you were mistaken when you said “I can’t conclusively state that EVER IN ANY SCENARIO, unless I was personally a witness,” rather than make the assumption that you so ignorant of the history of law as to not know the unreliability of eyewitness testimony.

        I personally believe that Jackie lied to Rolling Stone. So have some of my favorite rock stars. But, back to Jackie, I don’t believe she was ritually gang raped at UVA, but when Rolling Stone uses those lies to form a smear campaign because they think they have a hot story on their hands, that is IMO ultimately the problem, so if you think the problem is police not following up on false testimony, again I could see how that PA would consider that ‘victim-blaming adjacent’.

        Also, I would appreciate if you could give me an example of where you’ve referred to percentages of false allegations in other crimes, because if you only do this when it comes to rape, then….welll, y’know…’victim-blaming adjascent.’

        1. I hesitate to dialog with you lest I accidentally offend. But with that in mind,
          t

          his is certainly, as she said, ‘victim-blaming adjacent,’ because it’s not merely about ‘Jackie,’ it is about rape victims in general and which percentage of them are liars.

          If you believe it’s “victim blaming”–sorry, I forgot the “adjacent”– to explain a common misconception so that people won’t keep getting the damn FACTS wrong (“what a %age of false accusation actually means” is a FACT, not an opinion,) then go right ahead. Doesn’t bother me a whit.
          I mean sure, it will provide a good disincentive to avoid explaining it, so that it will increase th # of people in the world who don’t understand the data. but if you’re more into truthiness than truth it’s your call.

          I’ll also be nice

          thank you. That means a lot.

          and presume that you were mistaken when you said “I can’t conclusively state that EVER IN ANY SCENARIO, unless I was personally a witness,”

          nope. not mistaken.

          rather than make the assumption that you so ignorant of the history of law as to not know the unreliability of eyewitness testimony.

          Did you read the block quote located roughly 1/2 inch above what I was saying? Or did you ignore the context and just go for the most idiotic interpretation? Hmm. Looks like you chose Option 2.

          But, back to Jackie, I don’t believe she was ritually gang raped at UVA,

          That’s a relief.

          but when Rolling Stone uses those lies to form a smear campaign because they think they have a hot story on their hands, that is IMO ultimately the problem,

          Yeeeeees… and?

          so if you think the problem is police not following up on false testimony, again I could see how that PA would consider that ‘victim-blaming adjacent’.

          First of all: there is not ONE problem. Or THE problem. There are multiple problems.

          Also, I would appreciate if you could give me an example of where you’ve referred to percentages of false allegations in other crimes, because if you only do this when it comes to rape, then….welll, y’know…’victim-blaming adjascent.

        2. Also, I would appreciate if you could give me an example of where you’ve referred to percentages of false allegations in other crimes, because if you only do this when it comes to rape, then….welll, y’know…’victim-blaming adjacent.

          Divorce, theft, fraud, contract, consumer law: what sort of examples do you want? Everyone lies; some people more than others. We all deal with false accusations all the time.

          But we usually don’t get into arguments about it. That’s because with respect to other crimes, there aren’t many folks who quote incorrect stats, or reach incorrect conclusions, or who spend a lot of time fighting against the very idea that an accusation can be false, or questioned.

        3. I hesitate to dialog with you lest I accidentally offend.

          Considering that you, personally have never offended me, could you please just give up this canard every time you respond to me? Please? I would be happy to send you the doctor’s report from that day to prove that I wasn’t lying about my emotions being high due to a bad case of strep throat. It makes for interesting reading, especially the bit that says ‘Tonsils, Uvula- Pus+++.’ I asked the doctor how many plusses is that out of and he said ‘three.’ And again, my offence wasn’t even directed at you- you’ve pissed people who aren’t me around here and I never threw it back in your face. So can we just stick to the topic without the little asides about how sensitive I am?

        4. Considering that you, personally have never offended me, could you please just give up this canard every time you respond to me? Please?

          Yes. Sorry. Moving on.

  5. I usually don’t assume that a rape accusation is false (i was one who believed the duke accuser initially) but recently a woman accused an african uber driver of assault. it looked esp. dicey since he was using his wife’s uber account, thereby bypassing any criminal background check. now it seems that a recording shows that their encounter was consensual. false rape accusers just make it that much harder for true rape victims to be believed.

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-uber-driver-rape-charge-dropped-met-20150406-story.html

  6. I’m really uncomfortable with the way the commenting thread has turned into a referendum on whether ‘Jackie’ is a liar.

    The OP has pointed out that we do not know exactly what happened or why some of what she is reported to have told the reporter does not match up with what people have learned from other sources. That’s what unsubstantiated means. Both the OP and some of the sources she quotes list a number of explanations other than lying as to why her version of what happened can’t be substantiated.

    The point of the OP — and of the report — was that Rolling Stone did not bother to do the most basic fact-checking.

    Their main fault was to be too accommodating of Jackie. Now we’re back to “misplaced” trust. The complete journalistic meltdown on the part of Erdely and the editorial staff above her was all out of an effort to protect Jackie’s feelings.

    I don’t buy that. If they’re claiming that, it’s a rationalization. Rolling Stone is in the business of delivering hot, trendy stories. It seems far more likely that they were reluctant to look too closely or skeptically at what appeared to be a major, sizzling story. FWIW, I recall reading that ‘Jackie’ asked that the story be killed, and was overruled. That doesn’t sound like “protecting ‘Jackie’s’ feelings.”

    1. Your take on RS is spot on – they thought of themselves, their exposure, and bottom line first. Nothing else. Their crocodile tears of concern for Jackie or any others who report assault are a joke. And their shoddy reporting has done more harm than any public event in recent memory to delegitimize survivors and push them back into shadows and silence. That is precisely why we need to be clear that we understand that all claims should be duly investigated, and that some (a very, very small percentage according to DOJ stats) are not true.

      And part of that is not sugar coating the fact that Jackie’s account is clearly, indisputably fabricated. The man she accuses of orchestrating the attack, asking her on a date, instructing and coercing the others to assault her? This man does not exist. The photo she provided for him is of an old high school classmate who lives in another state, with whom she has no connection. She invented this personality, “Haven”, well in advance of the alleged assault, and created several false accounts – email and text – to mislead others into believing he was an upperclassman who had long been pursuing her, in what is now a clear and long-running attempt to foster jealousy in a male friend named Ryan (read the transcript of the texts). When Ryan responded in a way that was unintended, by not becoming jealous but saying “Haven” sounded like a decent guy who was absolutely smitten with Jackie, she changed tack by telling her friends she and Haven were going on a date. And that is when she called Ryan to say Haven had arranged this brutal attack. 5 days later, after the alleged gang rape, and using the very same fake email account she created for “Haven”, she had “Haven” send Ryan a love letter plagiarized from Dawson’s Creek episodes – the logic being that Haven was such a good guy, he needed Ryan to know Jackie’s true feelings for him and how they were really meant for each other. This is the exceedingly rare case of a falsified account, with an amazing amount of hard proof of fabrication at each and every turn, which started way before there was any allegation of assault.

      There are other issues, but these could genuinely be attributed to memory lapses (There was no party that night. There were no pledges at this time to “initiate”. No frat members worked as lifeguards). I would never dispute an account based on true inconsistencies, because a survivor contending with trauma could easily have difficulties assembling all the pieces perfectly, and well may not have known every last detail to begin with. But that’s a totally different scenario from running a very long and deliberate (if initially innocuous) deception using multiple fake email accounts, anonymizing texting software, random photos pulled from high school yearbooks, etc.

      If we can’t acknowledge that a case like this, fabricated from wholecloth, is false, unfortunate, and NOT representative of the issue of rape — then we lose all credibility to fight for actual survivors. I, for one, am not ready to do that.

      This doesn’t change the fact that Jackie is a person. She deserves help and compassion for whatever she is struggling with.

      1. then we lose all credibility to fight for actual survivors.

        As an actual survivor, throwing out that I disagree with this.

        Here’s an alternate scenario that seems equally likely to me:

        Jackie gets raped, confides in a professor. The professor connects her to a writer at RS. The writer discusses Jackie’s rape, and then pressures her to give a name. From RS: “Also, Jackie refused to provide Erdely the name of the lifeguard who had organized the attack on her.” Maybe she’s scared that this guy can retaliate against her (he already effing raped her), so she gives a different name. Then this blows up in RS. Her white lie to protect herself turns into a thing, and now they want a picture of him – so it turns into a desperate attempt to not completely invalidate her report on the basis of the white lie she gave when she was coerced by the reporter into naming someone. She gives a picture, she creates a profile – she wants this shit to go away because she had no idea that this – the way the media and public constantly scrutinize the fuck out of rape victims – was what would happen.

        That scenario, by the way, seems more likely to me than “she happens to be a pathological liar who made up this story for funsies.” And if my scenario happened, I am perfectly happy supporting rape victims who aren’t perfect angels, and I’m sick of demanding the world from them.

        1. And if my scenario happened, I am perfectly happy supporting rape victims who aren’t perfect angels

          You seriously don’t get how fucked up this:

          The photo she provided for him is of an old high school classmate who lives in another state, with whom she has no connection.

          is? If someone used your name and photograph to create a fake rapist’s profile, you’d be totally on board?

          Jackie gets raped, confides in a professor. The professor connects her to a writer at RS. The writer discusses Jackie’s rape, and then pressures her to give a name. From RS: “Also, Jackie refused to provide Erdely the name of the lifeguard who had organized the attack on her.” Maybe she’s scared that this guy can retaliate against her (he already effing raped her), so she gives a different name.

          Except this scenario doesn’t make any sense because not only does the name not correspond to reality, the attack that was supposedly organized against her never happened. Maybe she is a survivor of a separate sexual assault that bore no relation whatsoever to the one she went public with, but you could say that about literally anyone. There’s zero evidence that she was sexually assaulted.

          And even is she was, it wouldn’t excuse using some poor random classmate’s photograph to create a fictitious rapist. I’d argue that level of violation practically rises to the level of assault itself (morally, not legally).

        2. She gives a picture

          She explicitly identifies a complete innocent as a rapist

          she creates a profile

          She puts a picture of a real and innocent human being on the internet and claims this person raped her, in order to either a) throw the heat off her real rapist, because reasons or b) perpetuate her false claim of having been raped.

          There, fixed that for you.

          Hot damn. I’ve been sexually abused as a teenager, and I still haven’t received my “get out of being called an asshole for one (1) deliberate frame-up of a complete innocent free” card. Maybe it’s in the mail?

        3. I’m not comfortable going this far. I’m all for giving rape victims/accusers the benefit of the doubt (as I think I sufficiently indicated in my post), but there’s a difference between things that were done to her (e.g., sexual assault, if, in fact, there was one) and things that she did to other people (e.g., specifically implicating innocent parties, both on campus and states away). The first doesn’t exonerate her from the second.

          Ryan Duffin, one of Jackie’s friends who was portrayed really badly in the article, has said that “a lot of the article was still based in truth,” and unfortunately, we’ll probably never know specifically how much or which parts. But those parts don’t erase any damage that has come to Phi Kappa Psi, UVA, or the man whose photo was presented as “Haven.” Like I said, no one hasn’t been harmed in this.

        4. I’m not going to continue arguing because I’m getting a little triggered and self-care is more important. Hopefully enough mutual respect exists that we can all agree to disagree. You aren’t changing my mind at all, and it sucks that I can’t get you to be more sympathetic.

        5. it sucks that I can’t get you to be more sympathetic.

          Wow, that’s a super passive aggressive way of saying ‘let’s agree to disagree.’

          From my perspective, the appalling lack of sympathy here is that you seem to think it’s not a big deal to have someone use your photograph to create a fake profile for the purpose of falsely accusing you of raping them- a chain of events that isn’t even in question anymore.

        6. You’re entitled to your own opinions, but it verges on being utterly immune to facts. As others have said, this is indeed how MRA types try to caricature us, and I think it harms the cause immensely.

          You speculate that perhaps Jackie fabricated the identity, email accounts, photos, texts, etc. to get RS off her back — because RS was leaning on her so heavily to name her rapist. But she fabricated ALL of this way, way, way BEFORE the alleged assault. As is now exhaustively clear from the long social media & data trail, she had been running this ruse about “Haven” on 3 different friends of hers way before the incident. The Haven character is pretty transparently a concoction to make the guy she liked (Ryan) feel jealous.

          I respect your experience and voice as a survivor.

          But as a person of color, with a young black son (4 yrs old) who in 10 years will be marked as a target for racial profiling, perennial suspicion, and brutality from police, I cannot get on board with the logic that “if someone accuses you, you must be guilty, to hell with the evidence”. Too many real cases of black men being lynched, both in the streets and the courts, for me to accept that. And a disturbing number of sensationalised false claims against black men of committing violent crimes against women, from Susan Smith who murdered her infant children but felt the perfect alibi was blaming the incident on a “black carjacker”, to Amanda Knox saying a Congolese bar owner broke in her home to murder her female roommate (he had zero connection to the case), to the friggin “runaway bride” who concocted a story about a scary “Latino man” abducting her. But I suppose each of these guys should just burn, facts be damned????

          I believed Jackie when the story broke. I believe every survivor when they report. Every one. But the next phase is where evidence is gathered, examined and tested. And this is critical, especially for my community that is over surveilled, over policed, over incarcerated, and always under suspicion.

          Not each and every account turns out to be true. When a case is actually disproven, like those cases I just mentioned, I don’t think it serves justice, fairness or the critical issue of a stopping rape to keep insisting that they are true.

    2. I’m really uncomfortable with the fact that there is evidently no amount of evidence that will lead to people being willing to condemn someone for making a false accusation. I don’t know about you, but the point at which the false accuser is making fake social media profiles or e-mail accounts from her supposed ‘rapist,’ using the photograph of a friend from high school, and then sending her friends harassing messages from said fake accounts… yeah, I’m done making excuses.

    3. I’m with you. Maybe it didn’t happen, but maybe it did – and I’m frankly not willing to damage a possible rape victim by doubting every aspect of her report because some of it was demonstrably false.

      1. I’m frankly not willing to damage a possible rape victim by doubting every aspect of her report because some of it was demonstrably false.

        This reads like an MRA’s parody of what he thinks feminists believe.

        1. My feeling is that the authorities should, after a fashion, doubt every aspect of everyone’s reports and testimony in a trust-but-verify way, in that everything should be investigated and examined. And that just because one aspect has been proven demonstrably false, that doesn’t mean that the other aspects shouldn’t still be investigated.

          The great irony with this case is that when Sabrina Erdely set out to find a big, dramatic example of a university and local police force mishandling rape allegations, what she found was a university that was completely responsible and a police force that handled things exactly as they should have — taking each claim seriously and investigating everything, and only suspending (not even closing) the case when all avenues of investigation had been exhausted. The only parties who didn’t do right were the alleged victim and Rolling Stone.

        2. Because we’re not just talking about random cases, we’re talking about a specific case. Check out the title of the thread- it’s topical.

      2. I’m frankly not willing to damage a possible rape victim by doubting every aspect of her report because some of it was demonstrably false.

        This reads like an MRA’s parody of what he thinks feminists believe.

        Not really, AFAIK, getting parts of your testimony wrong in any given trial, not just rape or assault, doesn’t get you completely excluded as a witness. People get things wrong. They’re not perfect.

        1. Not really, AFAIK, getting parts of your testimony wrong in any given trial, not just rape or assault, doesn’t get you completely excluded as a witness. People get things wrong. They’re not perfect.

          It’s really fucked up how people here keep turning “framed an innocent person for rape” into “made one little innocent mistake.”

        2. It’s really fucked up how people here keep turning “framed an innocent person for rape” into “made one little innocent mistake.”

          You are the one conflating the two. Did I not say ‘any given trial’? You said that a random feminist on the internet (Pretty Amiable,) who referred to her PTSD upthread, being unwilling to “damage a possible rape victim by doubting every aspect of her report because some of it was demonstrably false,” was “like an MRA’s parody of what he thinks feminists believe.” and I thought ‘no, what she describes sounds more like something that happens with people who lie AND with people who are mistaken.’ Plus PA has stated on several occasions that the way she feels about this is largely based on her personal experience.

          So why do you say that it’s a parody of ‘feminist’ behavior, when she is saying that her view is based on being a victim and not a feminist? If there is a parody of how MRA’s think assault victims behave, I would argue that it’s probably a parody not even worth entertaining.

    4. I don’t buy that. If they’re claiming that, it’s a rationalization. Rolling Stone is in the business of delivering hot, trendy stories. It seems far more likely that they were reluctant to look too closely or skeptically at what appeared to be a major, sizzling story. FWIW, I recall reading that ‘Jackie’ asked that the story be killed, and was overruled. That doesn’t sound like “protecting ‘Jackie’s’ feelings.”

      I agree with this 100%.

  7. Someone (not here) is pissing me off so much about this that I just made an extra donation to RAINN.

  8. The core issue here for feminists is that there should be a closer examination of how the therapeutic mindset is applied to the wider world.

    When someone goes to a safe space and says “I am a victim,” you believe them. They did not come to that space to be cross-examined and adjudicated. If someone lies, the worst outcome is that well-meaning people provide support, comfort and an understanding ear to someone who didn’t really need it. So you believe by default.

    Outside the safe space, other considerations come into play. Is the evidence sufficient to deprive another person of their liberty? Was the right person prosecuted? In the aggregate and in specific cases, is the system doing a good job prosecuting the guilty and protecting victims? Denying that these considerations need to be weighed isn’t being sensitive, it’s being willfully obtuse. At the very least, throwing the book at the wrong person because of a blanket policy of believing a victim and not pushing too hard on details and evidence leaves a rapist walking free.

    Despite these other very legitimate considerations, a great deal of commentary stays stuck on therapeutic mode. Inevitably, an accusation gets made, some people believe that it is their political/moral duty to believe someone who claims to be a victim (which is what “I believe victims” really means), allegations of “rape apologist” get tossed around like confetti and when it all blows up, well-meaning people have egg on their faces for their knee-jerk reactions.

    So what do you do? How do you support actual victims, many of whom are unfairly attacked by vested interests, without getting played for a fool at least some of the time? How can you explain that there are good reasons for fuzzy details that don’t quite line up without creating an elaborate just-so story to make it all hold together?

    I’m not 100% sure. I’d start by resisting the temptation to universalize. RAINN has come out against focusing on the concept of rape culture and in favor of focusing instead on achieving justice on individual cases. Erderly wanted to find the perfect combination of rich, white, politically conservative and fratty to make a wider point about the culture. In doing so, she let a lot slide because it sounded like something men she didn’t like would probably do.

    But most of all, I’d suggest slowing down and listening before throwing out the slogans. There seems to be a tendency to handwave off any questions or criticism as “rape apology” or to cite the 2-8% figure, as if 2-8%=0%. Maybe we can expand #istandwithjackie to #istandwithjackieinprinciplebutindividualsituationscanbecomplicatedandthoughwhilethefailuretoinvestigatewasunforgivablethatdoesntmeantheinvestigationwouldhaveturnedoutonewayortheother. I’m not holding my breath.

    1. This sums it up perfectly. We should fight for a culture where every allegation is given respect, trust, and the benefit of the doubt. That trust is sacred in safe spaces, and has to be unconditional from crisis counsellors who work in a therapeutic setting.

      But outside that space, we also need to remember the importance of a factual inquiry to make sure an innocent person doesn’t go to jail.

      The wrongful convictions, and outright lynchings, of black men over the course of our history should be ample reminders of the dangers of disregarding evidence.

      George Stinney is the youngest person ever executed in this country. At 14, he was accused of assaulting and murdering two white girls – based on nothing more than the fact that he had once talked with them. He was tried, convicted, and sentenced to death by an all white jury in less than an hour – because, really, what evidence did they need? They all “just knew” he was guilty. Last year, he was finally exonerated by a court ruling that his conviction was completely unfounded.

      As a woman of color, I can’t rank injustices – and say which one, sexual violence or a racist criminal justice system, is “worse”. Both are literally destroying my community, and our kids are getting gunned down by police or vigilantes on what seems to be a daily basis. That so many killed were unarmed does not seem to matter, their blackness is evidence enough of how “threatening” they are.

      These issues also entwine in complex and tragic ways. Police brutality against black people stops a lot survivors in my community from calling the police, or otherwise seeking help. Remember Amadou Diallo, the innocent man shot 41 times by the NYPD for holding up his wallet? Turns out he was gunned down as the police were searching his block for a rape suspect… Not the kind of thing that makes you feel like dialing 911 if you happen to survive an assault. Being on the receiving end of that “guns blazing” mentality, the idea that every accusation is automatically a guilty verdict is deeply worrying.

      I just wanted to say that I think LTL FTC got the issue exactly right.

      1. Actually the youngest person ever executed in this country was Hannah Ocuish. She was 12 and NDN ( identified as a half breed at the time. Lovely.)

      2. It took almost 70 years for Leo Frank to be “pardoned” for the rape and murder of little Mary Phagan (a crime he didn’t commit), for which he was lynched by the good white citizens of Marietta, Georgia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Frank.) He still hasn’t been fully exonerated, unfortunately.

        The numbers of lynchings of Jews in this country (of which Frank’s was the most famous, leading to the formation of the ADL) don’t begin to compare to all the lynchings of African-Americans and Hispanic and Native American people, but belong to their own long tradition of people unquestionably believing anything and everything alleged against a Jew, going back to little Hugh of Lincoln almost 800 years ago (the victims of evil Jews are always “little,” I guess), and beyond. Never mind things that have happened more recently — all fully legal, and implemented by the duly constituted authorities — to my mother and her family, among many others. So although I can never fully understand what Black people and other POC have faced in the USA, I can certainly empathize with everything you mention as much as anyone with present-day white privilege possibly can — most recently, in the case of the Walter Scott murder — and I think LTL FTC explains very well the distinction that has to be drawn. Even though my strong instinct to believe women’s allegations of rape (in both contexts mentioned) is never going to change.

      3. For those of us who don’t have law enforcement powers (e.g. the vast majority) the default of “believe victims” is still practical. Again, the worst thing that can happen is that somebody who is not a rapist will be socially excluded, which is unpleasant, don’t get me wrong, but people are socially excluded for all kinds of reasons and it’s rarely considered an infringement of their rights.

        I agree that a higher standard of proof needs to be applied before somebody can actually be imprisoned or otherwise punished, although a prima facie “believe victims” approach might still be helpful in the initial stages of the investigation – e.g, the police or other authorities should treat their task as finding evidence to confirm the victim’s allegations, rather than making a judgement on the factual or non-factual nature of the allegations. That’s a task for the judge/jury.

        1. “the worst thing that can happen is that somebody who is not a rapist will be socially excluded”

          Tell that to Emmett Till, the Scottsboro boys, Elias Clayton, Elmer Jackson, Isaac McGhie, or the innumerable other blacks lynched on false accusations…

          So believe, yes, but verify. And if upon verification the facts happen to disprove a particular allegation, then acknowledge that also.

        2. @Juanita: I feel that the kind of people who are motivated by feminist principles to believe rape victims are unlikely to be the kind of people who go on to lynch rapists.

          I’m against lynching in all its forms, even if people -are- guilty of raping someone.

          I feel that these positions are consistent.

        3. Because of false accusations, but also because they were black. And I’ll bet the latter part was a hell of a lot more important.

        4. I feel that the kind of people who are motivated by feminist principles to believe rape victims are unlikely to be the kind of people who go on to lynch rapists.

          I’m against lynching in all its forms, even if people -are- guilty of raping someone.

          I feel that these positions are consistent.

          You’re misreading the point. It’s not that we’re arguing feminists are in support of lynching, we’re arguing that the narrative ‘we should never, ever question whether rape accusations are truthful’ totally erases the destructive history of false accusations against (primarily) black men. And it’s disingenuous to pretend that problem has gone away just because we’ve replaced lynching with incarceration.

          Because of false accusations, but also because they were black. And I’ll bet the latter part was a hell of a lot more important.

          You can’t just separate them neatly out like that. Nobody is saying lynching wasn’t about racism. We’re saying that you can’t just drop a bomb like ‘nothing that bad has ever happened to someone from being falsely accused of rape’ and expect people not to raise their eyebrows at your white privilege and historical ignorance.

        5. Uh yeah. Entire NDN villages were wiped out on rumors of savages raping white women. The idea they MIGHT was an excuse to preemptively murder NDN men. And it was ok, because NDNs were raping, scalping heathens and everyone knew it. And there was no distinction between peaceful nations, because an NDN was an NDN was an NDN.

          POC aren’t allowed individuality. If a poc does something bad, he/she represents everyone of their race. So false or unproven allegations don’t just affect that individual poc.

          Trust but verify is the best course of action for both victim and the accused.

  9. You can’t just separate them neatly out like that.

    Actually, you pretty much can. All those lynchings were cases of black men accused of raping white women. That was is so murderously offensive to white supremacy because it posits a situation in which a black person has power over a white person. Those stories were really entirely about race.

    1. Actually, you pretty much can. All those lynchings were cases of black men accused of raping white women. That was is so murderously offensive to white supremacy because it posits a situation in which a black person has power over a white person. Those stories were really entirely about race.

      You’re being obtuse, whether intentionally or not. Moxon wrote:

      Again, the worst thing that can happen is that somebody who is not a rapist will be socially excluded,

      You can’t defend that statement on the basis of “well, yeah, but I only meant white people.”

      1. You can’t defend that statement on the basis of “well, yeah, but I only meant white people.”

        Well sure, when it’s a black man accused of rape by a white woman, I think the historical examples brought up by Juanita are salient. Otherwise, I really think it isn’t.

        But even then, I think lynchings were motivated by a need to protect white supremacy, whereas Moxon, Zerlina Maxwell and others who make similar arguments are motivated by a desire to protect rape victims. And yes, this does make a difference. The topic is the same, but the underlying social dynamics are very, very different.

        1. Yeah, that’s a lot of words that have no bearing on the fact that

          Again, the worst thing that can happen is that somebody who is not a rapist will be socially excluded,

          Is an ignorant, fucked-up thing to say.

      2. ‘we should never, ever question whether rape accusations are truthful’

        Except I didn’t say that. In fact, I specifically said that when the people doing the questioning are those who have the power to enact forceful sanctions, e.g. police officers, questioning (or more accurately, confirming prior to sanctions) is appropriate. This would equally apply to somebody with the self-appointed power to start a lynch mob – which is, again, a power I think nobody should have, but if we insist on considering how my words would apply to people who do start lynch mobs, it’s pretty clear they’d be closer to the police than to your average Joe or Jane Bloggs.

        As for social exclusion, I realise it can be harmful, I’ve been socially excluded myself for what I felt were pretty trivial reasons many times, and it sucked. But as much as it sucked, it was not a violation of my rights, because nobody has an obligation to invite me to parties, include me in social circles, or refrain from calling me a rapist.

  10. I did not anticipate getting lectured and condescended to on the history and dynamics of lynching, something I might just know a little about as it has happened to people in my family not so long ago. For the record, it is not “just about race”. It is about race AND sexuality AND gender AND power. Many of those attacked were never accused of “dominating” a white woman through actual violence; it was enough to be in a mixed relationship thought to “contaminate” white purity, with “purity” understood in both racial and sexual terms. It was enough to talk, smile, or even look at someone.

    I should have known better than to expect understanding, compassion, or (keep dreaming) solidarity — just because innocent black children are being hunted in the street like dogs, while their executioners are hailed as heroes on Fox News.

    I thought folk might try to understand how pushing the idea that “every accusation = guilt” might be terrifying to women with black sons… but I guess #solidarityisforwhitewomen

    This will be my last post because I just can’t. Anything I would try to say is said much better here:

    http://www.sojournertruth.net/rrwwm.pdf

      1. Rarely has one single case exposed so clearly as Till’s the underlying group-male antagonisms over access to women; for what began in Bryant’s store [where Till whistled] should not be misconstrued as an innocent flirtation. … Emmett Till was going to show his black buddies that he, and by inference, they, could get a white woman. …The accessibility of all white women was on review, (p. 247) We are rightly aghast that a whistle could be cause for murder, but we must also accept that Emmett Till and J. W. Milam shared something in common. They both understood that the whistle was no small tweet. . . it was a deliberate insult, just short of physical assault, a last reminder to Carolyn Bryant that this black boy, Till, had in mind to possess her.

        Jesus. Nothing really changes, does it?

        As an aside, I’m not super impressed with the author’s decision to attack one ahistorical, psuedoscientific, teleological view of history (the overthrow of a mythical matriarchal society, along with lots of entirely imagined evo-psych bullshit) and replace it with another, equally overspecified, sweepingly baseless theory (Marxism).

        1. It would be extremely helpful if you explained what and whom you’re quoting; it’s impossible from what you write to tell, and one has to read the linked article to know that it’s a quotation from Susan Brownmiller, and that your reference to Marxism is not to Brownmiller but to the article’s author. The Brownmiller quotation shouldn’t surprise anyone who understands that the fundamental tenet of second wave radical feminism is that the “root” (hence, “radical”) of all oppression, which allegedly preceded racism and supersedes it in significance — in essence, the original sin of humankind — is misogyny. Which leads inevitably to finding Emmett Till “guilty,” with the lynching merely “overkill.”

          It’s no wonder that people whose analysis led them to believe that cis (and, in their worldview, white) women were the first and most victimized oppressed class could never conceivably be party to anyone else’s oppression.

        2. It would be extremely helpful if you explained what and whom you’re quoting;

          Yep, sorry- for some reason I was only talking to Juanita (who was obviously familiar with the piece) and not thinking about other readers. Thanks for reminding me.

      2. I can’t think of anything to add, except yes, to all of it.

        I would agree with everything Juanita said, and ludlow, I’m pleased that you didn’t just dismiss her for not talking about ‘Jackie’ by saying something like “we’re not just talking about random cases, we’re talking about a specific case. Check out the title of the thread- it’s topical.” Because that would have been kind of a jerky way to address someone who is making a point about rape accusation in general.

        1. Christ, you really have just got to get over yourself

          If you think that was about your specific comments to me (which have been relatively tame,) and not about the way you’ve been shift goalpoasts all over this thread, well then I assure you I have not been insulted by anything you’ve said.

        2. I mean, you quoted one of my responses to you word for word, so yeah, I do

          think that was about your specific comments to me

          and your inability to, again, get over yourself. As much as I love all the whitesplaining going on here, it does get old eventually.

        3. I mean, you quoted one of my responses to you word for word, so yeah, I do

          Oh, I assumed you were making fun of Pretty Amiable’s ‘That was at ludlow’ by saying ‘Sorry, that was for FatSteve.’ But now that i look back it it, it was just an unfortunate side effect of the nesting.

          Sorry, I guess it was about me. As such, it was also me who was being jerky and I apologize. As I said up thread, I agree with Juanita and wouldn’t want this to derail her good point, so apologies, a third time.

    1. And by the way, Juanita, I agree with every word you’ve said here. It should be possible to be a feminist and anti-racist at the same time. If I didn’t believe that, I wouldn’t consider myself a feminist. (Especially since people like me haven’t exactly been welcomed by feminism over the last half-century.)

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