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Philosophy, liberalism, and race: Falguni A. Sheth in the NYT

So, I’m not the world’s biggest fan of philosophy as a discipline, and that’s because easily three-quarters of the philosophy grad students I have met have been big jerks, in a very particular kind of humorless way and personally judgey way (“You shouldn’t eat that,” one of them said when we were out to dinner in a group and I ordered duck. “Why?” I said. “Duck is dirty and fatty,” he said. “Yes,” I said, “that’s why I like it.” And dude, nobody’s interested in your opinion of my meal, so shut it.). that has led me to suspect that the discipline either attracts/selects for that kind of big jerk, or that it manages to turn perfectly innocent people into that kind of big jerk, or, perhaps, that I just have had bad luck in the philosophy grad students I have met. I can say that they have all been male philosophy grad students, almost all white male philosophy grad students, and that may well be a part of it. But I digress.

Nonetheless, despite my personal prejudices (if you are going to spend any part of your comment castigating me about how philosophers are really awesome people and how dare I punch down at them, or something, skip it and relax; philosophers are not an oppressed group), I found this interview in the NYT the other day about the philosophy of liberalism and its dependence on racism to be fascinating (let me hasten to say that nobody who has read Engels on the Irish, for example, could possibly say that radical leftism is not similarly based on racism). I do think it’s more important in the context of the US to understand the relationship between liberalism and racism because the US is a nation-state that is more or less based on liberal philosophies that largely can’t bear to hear any indication that such philosophies might be fallible (What did the founding fathers intend? Well, who gives a fuck what a bunch of rich slave-owning gentile white men intended? I’m not convinced they were bearing my best interests in mind.).

Falguni A. Sheth, an associate professor of philosophy and political theory at Hampshire College. She is the author of Toward a Political Philosophy of Race:

The charge of “misapplication” of liberal theory is, I think, a desire to see selectively — to see only the best possible articulation of liberalism. But liberal frameworks are fundamentally predicated on violence or on rationalizing its effects, such as the conquest of “terra nullius,” of justifying enslavement, or the privation of rights to “idiots,” “savages,” “women.” … While we can make corrections to “ideal” liberal theory, these corrections are at base additive. They don’t fundamentally restructure the foundation of liberal society — namely the promise of universal and equal protections alongside a systematic impulse to violence in the name of “civilizing” the heathens, or for the purposes of maintaining “law and order.” At base, this is what the killing of Michael Brown, and the ensuing encounters between the police and protesters in Ferguson, Mo., have exposed: peace, safety, recognition of one’s humanity, law, order, rights will be doled out — or withheld — only in terms that allow those in authority, those with wealth, to remain comfortable. Consider the recent Supreme Court decision to allow restrictive voter ID requirements in Texas — which hurts the poorest citizens. But — and here’s the kicker — until we confront the repeated incidents of dehumanization as systematic, and not just a proliferation of accidental violations of humanity, we won’t be able to address or challenge the fundamental flaw of liberalism: the “compatibility” between the promise of universal protections for some groups, and violence for others.


106 thoughts on Philosophy, liberalism, and race: Falguni A. Sheth in the NYT

  1. Good piece; I think you need to fix the long quotation, because it’s all underlined instead of set off as a block quote.

  2. (What did the founding fathers intend? Well, who gives a fuck what a bunch of rich slave-owning gentile white men intended? I’m not convinced they were bearing my best interests in mind.).

    And genocidal.

    I know they didn’t have mine in mind, as they tried their damndest to exterminate my ancestors.

  3. Since I’m not a (professional) philosopher, I don’t really know exactly what she means by “liberalism,” and since I don’t, I have no clue as to why a system of an oppressor class and oppressed classes are a necessary consequence of it.

    However, I have a hard time seeing any particular political philosophy as the cause of any particular oppressive power structure. People come up with the power structures they want, impose them by force (if they can), and if they bother to claim a political philosophy, it is really nothing but an elaborate rationalization for doing what they were going to do anyway. Philosophies, like lies, are malleable and can be reshaped as necessary to deal with any idea that delegitimizes the status quo.

    As far as I can tell, a division of society into an oppressor class and everybody else and setting up laws, traditions, and religion to codify and justify their oppression has been around in Western society at least as far as 2500 years ago (can you tell I’ve been reading Thucydides?) The group in power may change over time, and the rationalizations may change, but the principle of “we do it because we can” hasn’t changed.

    1. I think that’s a legit critique–I’m not convinced that liberalism is unique in this regard at all, which I tried to indicate by referencing Engels. I do think that understanding the particular way liberalism is intertwined with racism is particularly important in the context of the US, as it is a nation based in large part on liberal/Enlightenment philosophy, and a nation that really has an incredibly difficult time admitting its racism, both past and present.

    2. I have no clue as to why a system of an oppressor class and oppressed classes are a necessary consequence of it.

      My background in academic analysis of liberalism comes from more of a government/power studies background than pure philosophy, but one argument in its most basic form is that liberalism assigns rights based on assumed characteristics of a universal “human”. Since many of those assumed characteristics aren’t really universal at all the logic of liberalism lends itself to just viewing anyone that differs too far (or is perceived to differ too far) from the assumed political subject as non- or sub-human.

  4. Here’s where I come from with it:

    The basis of classical liberalism can be traced back, by and large, to the Enlightenment. And facially, that looks really good. The Enlightenment, if you ask the majority of academics, is viewed as a Very Good Thing. It trumpeted reason, science, rational thought and all that good stuff.

    Until you realize that the Enlightenment was, at its core, deeply and profoundly racist. Pick up almost any thinker idolized during the time period – and today – and you’ll find abhorrent racism. Take, for example, Voltaire – championed today, but unapologetic about his views of black people and indigenous Americans. Candide is among the most hateful things I’ve ever heard as a Native American person. And he was far from the only one. That time period was in many ways the advent of scientific racism, which in some insidious form persists to this day.

    The problem with the field of “philosophy” in my mind is that it’s self-referential. You only become “great” when others in the field judge you to be. And the easiest way to do that is to play to what the majority want. How many of you have heard of Anton Amo? I didn’t for a long time either. Anton Amo was a philsopher from Ghana who challenged some of the idea of major philosphers like Hume and Kant (both of whom form major cornerstones of modern philsophy). Amo was dismissed out of hand by both, simply because he was black. Kant actually was quoted as, “this fellow was quite black from head to toe, a clear proof that what he said was stupid.” Amo was harassed so severely at his university in Germany that he returned to Ghana to live out the rest of his life, and very few philosophy programs today even mention him – or any other philosopher of African origins.

    The problem I see is something like what my grandfather, who was Sioux, used to say. “When you poison the well, any water you draw from it will be poisoned too.” That’s the problem. Modern philosophy draws from a poisoned well – one tainted by multiple problems, but really racism overall. And that’s why, for me, it simply doesn’t have anything worthwhile to say.

    1. The problem I see is something like what my grandfather, who was Sioux, used to say. “When you poison the well, any water you draw from it will be poisoned too.”

      That’s a terrible quote to apply to people. If you actually follow it through to it’s logical conclusion, I challenge you to find anything ideology, philosophy, code of ethics, or political persuasion you can support; I guarantee you I can find someone instrumental to said belief who has/had abhorrent views on something, be it race, gender, sexuality, ability, or whatever.

      1. That’s a bit ridiculous. We’re not talking about “ideology that people took and did bad things with.” We are talking about an ideology that is, at its very, basic core, racist. Enlightenment thought IS racist. It’s not an ideology that got corrupted or mis-used by people.

        The point of the Enlightenment was that the thought processes of the white European establishment was not just good, but was the single, only way to see the world and engage with it. They left no wiggle room or consideration for any other worldview. Read absolutely anything that originated with one of the “great” Enlightenment thinkers. Racism and Euro-centrism wasn’t merely incidental to their ideas – it was central. It sat at the heart of it. They considered the meta-physics and worldviews of others – largely Native Americans and black people – as inherently invalid because they did not use the “enlightened” thought processes that white men valued. And since they were “unenlightened” there was no reason to treat them with any respect or regard. You could do what you wanted to them.

        That was the case with Anton Amo. Amo did a strong critique of empiricism, which is one of the central tenants of popular Enlightenment and scientific thought – basically, it’s the belief that objective knowledge can be derived from sensory experience and observation – one of the primary fundamentals of the scientific method even today. Amo attacked the idea of empiricism on the grounds that human experience is colored by inherent bias against the marginalized and that the biases of the observer will color the observations, so his argument was that empiricism was not the best standard for which to base decision-making (I don’t want to debate Amo’s actual philosophy, since that is besides the point to this post). However, Amo was dismissed out of hand by almost every major thinker in Europe – first because he was black, but also because he challenged the core of the white hegemony that sat at the core of Enlightenment thought. To accept Amo’s argument would have been to weaken empiricism as a method for understanding the world, and that would have struck right at the foundation of the whole philosophical school. And that simply could not be.

        So to me, that’s the difference. The Enlightenment wasn’t a racially neutral movement that got corrupted along the way, it was an inherently racist movement. That’s the distinction, but I’m not sure if you can fully appreciate it without a deeper understanding of the actual concepts at issue.

        1. So to me, that’s the difference. The Enlightenment wasn’t a racially neutral movement that got corrupted along the way, it was an inherently racist movement.

          Sure, I get that, it just has no bearing on whether we should support a free press, or whether the scientific method works. The Enlightenment had all kinds of problems (not just racism, but also misogyny and deeply horrifying ableism, incidentally), but that just doesn’t have much to do with whether we should support policies that partially have their roots in a 400-year-old philosophical movement.

        2. that just doesn’t have much to do with whether we should support policies that partially have their roots in a 400-year-old philosophical movement.

          You’re really still not getting it. At this point, I have to wonder if you’re being rather obtuse (again). Basically, your point started out that every movement has somebody in it that’s said or done something bad. Which…um, pardon my French, but no shit, Sherlock. The question isn’t whether anything bad was ever done. The question is whether the bad stuff was incidental or central to the ideology. When it comes to Enlightenment thought, it was central to the dogma. You couldn’t separate the racism out from the main tenants. It was fundamental to it.

          And yes, to me, I do not want the society in which I live to be based upon an ideology that fundamentally views me as less than and as a savage. Funny how that works. I am far less concerned with lofty ideals and beliefs than I am about how actual humans live. The fact that you can feel comfortable on some level, living in a society based largely upon Enlightenment principles and not notice the racism inherent in the ideology until now says far more about you than it does about the ideology or the ideas it spawned.

          And you also seem to be operating under the impression that the things you like about Enlightenment thought – such as freedom of the press or that stuff – were unique to it. In fact, multiple “non-Enlightened societies” were creating noble ideas and progressive social structures long before any enlightened white people showed up. Hell, it’s now (finally) recognized that the government model of the US was largely influence by the structure of the Iroquois League – but where in the Constitution do you see them given the credit? Let me give you a hint – nowhere. Because the framers were influenced by the Enlightenment ideal that a savage simply could not be as good as them, and thus, the savage must be erased from history (but they could take their ideas).

          You have basically shrugged your shoulders and said, “But it gave us some good stuff.” And you don’t even realize how very little it actually gave you, and how much the indigenous peoples did. And that is fundamentally the problem you have, and it is not anybody else’s job to help you along.

        3. Funny how that works. I am far less concerned with lofty ideals and beliefs than I am about how actual humans live.

          Exactly my point, actually.

          I think you’re maybe not reading my posts and just making up positions for me? I’ve been pretty clear about the fact that I’m not a big fan of the Enlightenment as a philosophical movement, both because of its racism and for a number of other reasons. I just don’t think that insight has much relevance addressing the racism endemic in our society.

          And you also seem to be operating under the impression that the things you like about Enlightenment thought – such as freedom of the press or that stuff – were unique to it.

          Nope, not at all. I was responding to your assertion that, because the Enlightenment was racist, every idea held by the Enlightenment was ‘tainted.’ You wrote that:

          If Enlightenment thought were to be thrown out or broken down, there does basically Western society. There goes capitalism. There goes modern science.

          My point is that this is absurd; of course we can decide to stop reifying a 400-year-old racist philosophical movement without suddenly giving on evidence-based science just because the latter has partial historical roots in the former.

        4. You have basically shrugged your shoulders and said, “But it gave us some good stuff.” And you don’t even realize how very little it actually gave you, and how much the indigenous peoples did. And that is fundamentally the problem you have, and it is not anybody else’s job to help you along.

          Ok, I’m going to try one last time, despite your apparently willful attempts to miss the point.

          I’m not defending the Enlightenment. I’m not arguing the Enlightenment wasn’t racist. I’m not saying we shouldn’t critique Enlightenment ideals in our modern society. I’m responding to your absurd claim that throwing out the Enlightenment means throwing out science, capitalism, and every other idea Enlightenment philosophers supports.

          Incidentally, your point here:

          And you also seem to be operating under the impression that the things you like about Enlightenment thought – such as freedom of the press or that stuff – were unique to it.

          is actually a pretty decent refutation of your earlier argument, as well.

  5. The basis of classical liberalism can be traced back, by and large, to the Enlightenment. And facially, that looks really good. The Enlightenment, if you ask the majority of academics, is viewed as a Very Good Thing. It trumpeted reason, science, rational thought and all that good stuff.

    Until you realize that the Enlightenment was, at its core, deeply and profoundly racist.

    I won’t speak to “liberalism” as such (I still don’t know exactly what it is) but the words/phrases “reason” and “rational thought” do push my buttons.

    People who tout “reason” always do so as if there were some sort of “rationality” out there, unsullied by any human viewpoint, and moreover that they are in posession of it. And that it is some sort of machine, where if you’ve got it, you just turn the crank and out comes Objective Truth. In practice, when I see people claiming they are being “rational”, it always turns out to be a rationalization for a conclusion they’ve already reached by other means.

    Basically, it’s an example of the principle that if you get to make the rules and choose the referees, you can make sure your team always wins.

    A modern example is Richard Dawkins. Revered as a God of Reason, utterly convinced that he is a paragon of rational thought and that, if anyone disagrees with him, it can only be because they are being irrational. And a fountain of many kinds of bigotry. And, no, his views couldn’t possibly be related to the fact that he’s a highly privileged person within an already highly privileged society. No, they are the products of Pure Reason and thus irrefutable.

    Any similarities to the sort of certainty that Fundamentalists have for their bigotries are “neither intentional, nor accidental, but rather unavoidable.”

    1. Basically, it’s an example of the principle that if you get to make the rules and choose the referees, you can make sure your team always wins.

      That’s, to me, the crux of the whole issue. Enlightenment thought, from which the vast majority of our current science and reason-oriented thinking flows from, was created BY white men, FOR white men. Anybody who landed outside of that paradigm could be dismissed automatically out of hand without any actually consideration of what they were saying. It also very easily allows you to dehumanize them and see them as pawns that can be used to advance your own work. Hence, the long (and still going on) history of the nonconsensual use of people of color in research. When you come from a tradition that fundamentally posited people of color as less than and not “rational” – well, of course you’ll be more willing to abuse them to advance your goals. That makes perfect sense.

      The problem I see is that this system is very likely never to break down. It’s too entrenched. Too many people have too much invested in this stuff. If Enlightenment thought were to be thrown out or broken down, there does basically Western society. There goes capitalism. There goes modern science. There goes a lot of stuff. The very thought itself is terrifying. The opposite of Reason and Liberalism (and by that I mean the classical sense) is seen as nothing less than primitivism and savagery. And we certainly cannot allow that to happen.

      1. I would like to print out your comment and make high school history students read it. That’s exactly how I talk about it to students; sure, the rules are rewritten but the same people still benefit them. Same shit, different hat.

        Here in California at least, the 10th grade “Modern World History” course is designed to show human history as developing in a natural arc to a democratic ideal, and the early structure goes like this:
        Chapter 1: Greece and Rome, and I shit you not, Judeo-Christian (their wording, not mine) traditions of law and government, then right to the Magna Carta and Parliament.
        Chapter 2: the Enlightenment.
        Chapter 3: the French revolution
        Chapter 4: “An Age of Ideologies” (so the 1800s political history, roughly.)

        And this is called “world” history, with the unfortunate implications that come with only associating Asia and Africa with imperialism, communism, and “20th Century Struggles for Independence” (chapters 9, 10, 15, and 16). So we deliberately design these enlightenment values as a sort of pinnacle of human intellectual development (cause all that other stuff is just “ideology”) thus making them value-neutral and beyond criticism.

        I picked up this class after teaching AP stuff and I was seriously blown away at how entrenched the narrative is.

      2. If Enlightenment thought were to be thrown out or broken down, there does basically Western society. There goes capitalism. There goes modern science.

        I think you overestimate how seriously most people take academic philosophy. We keep modern science around because it works. There’s nothing inherently racist about the scientific method; racism can affect scientists, it can lead to horribly unethical tests, and it can even change how the outcomes of experiments are viewed through the eyes of fallible human scientists, but at the end of the day the test of science is its predictive power about the universe. The gravitational force between two masses is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of their distance from each other. Light travels at 186,000 miles per second in a vacuum. The people who discovered those things might have problematic beliefs about race (or gender, or sexuality, or whatever), but it doesn’t mean the science they did isn’t valid.

        Your thesis is essentially equivalent to pointing to a racist quote by a scientist, pointing out that said scientist also discovered that penicillin treats infections, and then using that as evidence to stop administering antibiotics.

        1. Yeah…no.

          Listen, I know you’re of color. But I also know that you’re not Native or Black and Latin (the races that inordinately suffered under the type of things I’ve cited). So I’m not sure you really have sufficient background to really appreciate the conversation here.

          How could actual restitution be made, might you ask? First, above all else – any institution that took part in nonconsensual experimentation needs to make compensation payments to any survivors of the research or their descendants. To me, that is the fundamental core of it. If that bankrupts them? I don’t really care. I don’t particularly care that they might go out of business. Perhaps they should have considered that before they manipulated people of color and/or poor people into becoming guinea pigs. As far as I go, Johns Hopkins should be paying out the nose for the lead experiments it conducted in Baltimore. Frankly, I don’t care about the good stuff they do. I am not a utilitarian; the forced or coerced experimentation of people of color, to me, can not be justified by any decent outcomes.

          We keep modern science around because it works. There’s nothing inherently racist about the scientific method; racism can affect scientists, it can lead to horribly unethical tests, and it can even change how the outcomes of experiments are viewed through the eyes of fallible human scientists, but at the end of the day the test of science is its predictive power about the universe

          See, this is is where you lose me. Because it’s really, really clear here that you have no clue about the alternative systems that were developed by indigenous peoples. The medicine we have today is directly descended from the European model. However, this is what you miss – that model started from the premise that it is the only viable model and that anything that falls outside of it inherently doesn’t work. That is the issue. If the European science model works, then fine. But that isn’t the problem. It’s that it’s an exclusionary model. Stanley Aronowitz pointed out that it essentially creates the field, erects the goal posts and appoints the rules and referees – and the people doing the constructing were white males, and of course, that will codify their values, even unintentionally. That viewpoint was the driving force that was used to de-legitimize indigenous ways of life and to justify forcing the “better” European model on them. Native medicine and culture was nearly lost because of this, and we’ve had to spend centuries trying to piece it back together.

          I mean, I get why you feel the way you do, but that’s because you inherently cannot get it because you aren’t part of it. I am Native American, so I’m in this. I know our history better than most here, so I feel like I’m coming at this from a perspective you may fundamentally just not be able to get.

        2. How could actual restitution be made, might you ask?

          I am not a utilitarian; the forced or coerced experimentation of people of color, to me, can not be justified by any decent outcomes.

          Uh, yeah, none of this even slightly relates to anything I said, but I agree with you!

          See, this is is where you lose me. Because it’s really, really clear here that you have no clue about the alternative systems that were developed by indigenous peoples. The medicine we have today is directly descended from the European model. However, this is what you miss – that model started from the premise that it is the only viable model and that anything that falls outside of it inherently doesn’t work.

          OK, I don’t know how to say this more politely, but this is bunk. The ‘model’ is ‘what can be proven to work.’ It doesn’t matter who discovered that the lungs oxygenate blood (Ibn al-Nafis, for what it’s worth); if you run a bunch of experiments, you can observe that fact repeatedly.

          A huge chuck of the ‘alternative systems’ developed by people are, from a scientific perspective, bullshit. This applies both to Europeans and to every other culture on Earth. Leeches aren’t good for the flu. Drilling a hole in your head isn’t good for mental illness. Homeopathy doesn’t work. Chi doesn’t exist. Fortunately, we have a pretty good way of testing truth-claims like “goldenseal treats cancer;” we can do a bunch of tests, see what effects goldenseal has on people/animals/computer simulations with cancer, and come to some conclusions with a certain degree of confidence.

          You know where pharma companies get their new drugs? A huge chunk come from examining traditional herbal remedies, evaluating whether those remedies actually work, and then (in the ones that have a basis in reality) isolating the active compound and turning it into medicine. The idea that ‘mainstream medicine’ is hostile to knowledge that comes from indigenous cultures is diametrically opposed to reality. What real medicine rejects is remedies based in superstition. I get why that might hurt some feelings, but it’s not racist.

          That viewpoint was the driving force that was used to de-legitimize indigenous ways of life and to justify forcing the “better” European model on them.

          Which is unconscionable, but also unrelated to my point.

          Native medicine and culture was nearly lost because of this, and we’ve had to spend centuries trying to piece it back together.

          Which is a terrible loss, in terms of culture. That doesn’t mean all Native medicine works, though of course some of it did.

          I mean, I get why you feel the way you do, but that’s because you inherently cannot get it because you aren’t part of it. I am Native American, so I’m in this. I know our history better than most here, so I feel like I’m coming at this from a perspective you may fundamentally just not be able to get.

          What does this have to do with anything I said? I get that science has been used to further racist ends. I get that many scientists have been/are racist. I also am pretty sure that none of that affects the underlying nature of reality as revealed by scientific experimentation.

        3. My response is in moderation, but one other thing that stood out:

          Stanley Aronowitz

          Aronowitz is famous for being an uneducable scientific illiterate. This is a guy who wants to use literary deconstruction to achieve insights in quantum mechanics.

          Well that, and founding Social Text, a journal notorious for mistaking psuedoscientific bullshit for deep philosophical truths to the point that someone intentionally submitted total nonsense and got it published anyways.

          Not someone I’d cite in a discussion on the scientific method.

        4. You know where pharma companies get their new drugs? A huge chunk come from examining traditional herbal remedies, evaluating whether those remedies actually work, and then (in the ones that have a basis in reality) isolating the active compound and turning it into medicine. The idea that ‘mainstream medicine’ is hostile to knowledge that comes from indigenous cultures is diametrically opposed to reality.

          Yeah, except that wasn’t my point. The point is that those things became co-opted. For example, the idea for aspirin came from a compound that is present in many kinds of tree bark that multiple indigenous peoples used for centuries as pain relief. However, how many people know that? Almost none – because the white hierarchy has absolutely ZERO interest in placing the credit where credit is due. You’d have to search to find that information out. That is the problem – not that aspirin exists. The problem is that a bunch of white people (and later others as well) strode in, scooped up the work that indigenous peoples had done for centuries and held it up as evidence of the success of “their” way of doing things. If you couldn’t see that as the issue in the first place, well, I really, really can’t help you there. Enlightenment thought directly supported appropriation through its racism, which is the whole, you know, problem – since the Native peoples were less then, a remedy that worked could not be directly attributed to them – you had to “make it white” to make it okay.

          And, uh, I selected Aronowitz because, frankly, I thought that selecting a white man as the example would potentially impress you a little bit more, since you seem to place great stock in them. Aronowitz’s points are nearly identical to Hossein Nasr, who originated most the same ideas. But I figured that you’d be more inclined to dismiss him out of hand, since he also dabbles in Sufism, and you seem to get chagrined at anybody who espouses such things (given your prior comments about Islam).

        5. If you couldn’t see that as the issue in the first place, well, I really, really can’t help you there.

          You’re jumping between arguments so fast it’s hard to keep up! Yes, I agree that it’s problematic not to credit indigenous peoples for their discoveries. Again, that’s totally irrelevant to the question of whether the scientific method produces accurate truth-claims.

          You keep changing the grounds of the discussion. Enough with the evasions, misdirects, and personal attacks. You keep saying ‘but scientists have done X racist thing, and you don’t understand why that’s bad,” and I respond “yes, X was a terrible thing to do, but that doesn’t mean we should give up on distinguishing science from pseudoscience,” and then you respond with the exact same thing again.

          I started this conversation by pointing out that we wouldn’t have to jettison the scientific method if we called out Enlightenment racism, because the scientific method objectively works. Your response that scientists have done racist things is true, but a non-sequitor. I haven’t disagreed with a single thing you’ve said re: racist things that have been done in the name of science. What’s silly is to think that’s a commentary on the validity of science itself.

          I thought that selecting a white man as the example would potentially impress you a little bit more, since you seem to place great stock in them.

          What the fuck did you base that on? That’s a tremendously douchey thing to say, and I bet you won’t even bother fucking responding, because it’s so utterly without evidence. Christ, now you’re just being an asshole on purpose.

          Again, I haven’t disagreed with a single one of your examples of racism being bad, despite your odd and increasingly surreal assertions that I must disagree with you somehow.

          Hossein Nasr

          Yeah, he has some interesting points about the development of science in the Islamic world vs. Europe, and the philosophical underpinnings thereof. He also has said some stunningly idiotic things about the relationship between science and religion, as Taner Edis (a Turkish-American physicist) has discussed at length.

  6. Any system that permits and enforces the ownership of labor is inherently supportive of the objectification of human bodies. Capitalism is therefore, as it has manifested throughout the ages, inherently white supremacist, for not only is its logic of ownership consistent with the logic of racism and genocide, but racism and genocide are also vital instruments of capitalist greed. Non-white labor is cheaper than white labor, and so the labor exploitation of non-whites is far more profitable. It also goes without much saying that the accumulation of land and resources through imperial exploitation is foundational to capitalism’s development, particularly here in the US. This part of the world would be very different if the genocide of Black and Native people wasn’t its origin.

    So it’s not much of a leap in reasoning to say that any political philosophy that supports such a system is also inherently racist, in spite of the fact that many of the adherents of these philosophies don’t necessarily have racism in mind. It also helps to know that many of these philosophers, such as John Locke, are explicitly racist.

    1. Or rather, this part of the world would be different if the genocide and enslavement of Black and Native people wasn’t part of its history. It would be highly inappropriate to erase the history before settler and plantation colonialism.

    2. Capitalism is therefore, as it has manifested throughout the ages, inherently white supremacist, for not only is its logic of ownership consistent with the logic of racism and genocide, but racism and genocide are also vital instruments of capitalist greed.

      1) The fact that two thinks are logically consistent doesn’t mean one supports the other. That’s, well, logic. For example, socialism and genocide are compatible, as anyone can see from world history; socialism doesn’t inherently support genocide. You’re confusing correlation and causation.

      2) Citation badly needed. You’re asserting capitalism can’t survive without racism and genocide? Let’s see some evidence, or at least the logical underpinnings of such a fabulously outlandish statement.

      Non-white labor is cheaper than white labor, and so the labor exploitation of non-whites is far more profitable.

      Leaving aside the inherently problematic nature of the term ‘labor exploitation,’ what you’ve said is true in specific times/places, sure. But the fact that racism might make labor cheaper for some employers doesn’t mean racism is foundation or necessary to the functioning of markets. Again, problems with correlation and causation (broadly construed).

      Anyways, absent coercion- as in slavery, forced labor, kidnapping, and so on- it’s absurd to describe someone exchanging their time/resources for someone else’s time/resources as being ‘owned.’ It’s also kinda offensive.

      It also goes without much saying that the accumulation of land and resources through imperial exploitation is foundational to capitalism’s development

      No, it really doesn’t, since there are plenty of capitalist societies that don’t fit your description.

      1. You’re assuming that socialism is synonymous with the dictatorial regimes of state socialism, which in reality isn’t socialism at all because it still rests on the institution of private property. Economically, state socialism isn’t any different from capitalism, the only differences residing in political, beauracratic organization.

        As for the historical relation of racism to capitalism: this (horrible, disgusting) country began with settler-colonialist genocide and enslavement, because only by neutralizing the Indigenous people unwilling to give away vital land and resources did they manage to get the wealth they needed for the development of their own New World economy. Then when white settlers needed a reserve of cheap labor, they tore African people from their homelands and enslaved them.

        These forms of genocide have been so deeply ingrained in the history of this country that racial genocide has now become embedded into the very structure of society. Slavery may have been abolished formally, but only because it now exists elsewhere – in the Prison Industrial Complex. Genocide, more generally speaking, gives rise to the impune murders and rapes and assaults of Black and Indigenous and Latina men and women by cops and their allies, to the ongoing destruction and appropriation of already stolen Native lands, to the ongoing environmental degradation that actively harms poor Black, Latina and Indigenous communities, to the shameless continuation of racist traditions such as blackface and white girls wearing feather bonnets, and so much more.

        With the globalization of capitalism, racism has gone many places, to the extent that nearly every corner of the world is, within the overarching capitalist scheme of economic relations, exploiter or exploited. Our country continues to find new justifications to continue genocide, whether it’s through military campaigns in the Midde East or collaboration with Nazis and fascists in the subjection of foreign countries they feel threatened by. The end result of this globalized genocide is profit, because when certain segments of the population are subjugated, the basis for exploiting cheap labor and stealing land and resources remains. For that basis consists in degrading and attacking their value as human beings, and human beings of less value are less worthy of remuneration.

        Leaving aside the inherently problematic nature of the term ‘labor exploitation,’ what you’ve said is true in specific times/places, sure.

        I base my idea of labor exploitation on a modified version of Marx’s labor theory of value, an exploitation that can take place even when not in the form of literal slavery. I don’t believe that any work contract is an exchange between equals, no matter what. I think capitalism is an organized system of theft. If you think that’s nonsense, then it’s no shock to me that you think nearly everything else I’ve said is nonsense as well. In that case, you may as well ignore me.

        1. You’re assuming that socialism is synonymous with the dictatorial regimes of state socialism, which in reality isn’t socialism at all because it still rests on the institution of private property. Economically, state socialism isn’t any different from capitalism, the only differences residing in political, beauracratic organization.

          I mean, I can pick two other random examples to illustrate the point that the fact two things are compatible doesn’t mean they’re inherently linked, but do you actually need me to?

          As for the historical relation of racism to capitalism, more words

          Yeah, see, that’s not what you said. If you’d originally written ‘capitalism and racism are historically related,’ we wouldn’t be disagreeing. You asserted racism is so fundamentally intrinsic to capitalism that the latter can’t exist without the former. Please don’t try to change the grounds of the discussion partway through.

          I don’t believe that any work contract is an exchange between equals, no matter what.

          Just out of curiosity, if I have a longstanding agreement to wash the dishes every night in exchange for my roommate cleaning the apartment on weekends (because I hate vacuuming and she hates washing dishes), who’s exploiting who?

          If you’re OK with that, then can farmers exchange chickens for clothes from a tailor with exploitation? Assuming you’re OK with barter, are you ok with money existing (it’s really useful for making trades among multiple people, or when the goods you’re selling are perishable, or when you have to travel long distances and can’t carry chickens with you)?

          Assuming you’re ok with money existing, can people get paid for services, or just material goods? If it’s just material goods, are you OK with a world in which everyone has to perform manual labor? Where does that leave physically disabled people? Do we have to eliminate artists, writers, or musicians? Do teachers deserve to get paid?

          I’d actually really, really like to hear your answers to these questions- they’re not rhetorical. Where do you draw the line? How are you going to set up your socially just society?

        2. Our country continues to find new justifications to continue genocide, whether it’s through military campaigns in the Midde East or collaboration with Nazis and fascists in the subjection of foreign countries they feel threatened by.

          Also, uh, which Nazis are we collaborating with? Must have missed that on the evening news.

        3. The end result of this globalized genocide

          You know, when you apply that word to literally everything you don’t like, it loses most of it’s rhetorical force. Colonization of the Americas? Genocide. Invasion of Iraq? Bad, but not genocide.

        4. This is what I said initially:

          Capitalism is therefore, as it has manifested throughout the ages, inherently white supremacist…

          In other words, I didn’t say that racism was universally indispensable for capitalism, across all social contexts. I only said that it has been necessary for capitalism as we know it historically. Maybe I wasn’t clear enough, so if that’s the case I apologize. It’s not my intention to randomly shift goalposts.

          As for your questions, I don’t really think about blueprints for a post-capitalist, communist society, as none of us really know how things could unfold precisely within full communism. That depends on all kinds of contextual and material circumstances.

          So it’s difficult to envision alternate forms of material relations between people. All I know for sure is that there would be no such thing as privatized ownership of property. (Take most of what I say beyond this point with a grain of salt, in other words.) And with that, there would be no such thing as work (in the value productive sense, since there would be no bosses), money, not even exchange value. There would be no such thing as needing to earn anything, nor any payment for services, because they would be completely unnecessary. All that would exist would be producing things solely as subsistence. And since pretty much everything would be free, that doesn’t leave disabled people without any means of surviving. They already have access to the resources they need.

          What you described firstly would be in reality something like a voluntary agreement to do mutually beneficial activities for each other. Even if the word “exchange” is used to describe it (curiously so), all it would imply is that agreement, not an actual economic exchange of value, because for it to be an exchange of value, the separate activities would have to be commodified and therefore embody value, which is antithetical to a society without value production. What you described just sounds like something that, say, friends would do for each other, and that isn’t even close to exploitation in the Marxist sense of the term. Beyond that, exchange in full communism wouldn’t be anything beyond bartering, as bartering has no medium of exchange, no value that is exchanged between both sides.

        5. You know, when you apply that word to literally everything you don’t like, it loses most of it’s rhetorical force. Colonization of the Americas? Genocide. Invasion of Iraq? Bad, but not genocide.

          Genocide is the systematic destruction of an entire group of people. This destruction is most commonly conceived as large-scale murder, but it also often includes violence such as mass rape/gang rape, forced impregnation, enslavement, sex trafficking, mutilation of bodies, torture, forced sterilization, terrorist tactics, destruction of culture and language, and social abjectification.

          And guess what? Nearly all of those, including mass killing, apply to what the US did to Iraq.

          Also, uh, which Nazis are we collaborating with? Must have missed that on the evening news.

          This is something I specifically mentioned in the context of what came after the formal “abolition” of slavery, etc. Anyway, feel free to read this.

        6. As for your questions, I don’t really think about blueprints for a post-capitalist, communist society

          I guess I have a hard time taking that seriously. I don’t mean to be rude, but how can you seriously claim that there’s a better alternative to capitalism without being able to describe that alternative?

          And since pretty much everything would be free, that doesn’t leave disabled people without any means of surviving.

          Except that a lot of the things that make life better for people with disabilities are the function of modern supply chains and modern technology. What if nobody feels like assembling wheelchairs that week? After all, nobody has to work.

          Basically, I don’t see how the ‘nobody has to work, everyone gets whatever they want’ is compatible with anything higher than a Stone-Age level of survival, and the Stone Age probably wasn’t a great time to have a physical disability.

        7. Genocide is the systematic destruction of an entire group of people.

          Which group of people in Iraq have we systematically destroyed?

          You really don’t see the problem with using genocide to describe any war or invasion, ever? The word loses its meaning. It just becomes a term for ‘foreign policy that I don’t like.’ I think the decision to invade Iraq was a shitty one, and we hurt a lot of innocent people we didn’t need to, but calling it genocide makes a mockery of the word.

          You might think it expresses your outrage in a more rhetorically forceful manner, but in reality, it just makes you sound like you can’t make your point without resorting to shock tactics. It’s like people who call every politician they disagree with a Nazi.

          This destruction is most commonly conceived as large-scale murder, but it also often includes violence such as mass rape/gang rape, forced impregnation, enslavement, sex trafficking, mutilation of bodies, torture, forced sterilization, terrorist tactics, destruction of culture and language, and social abjectification. And guess what? Nearly all of those, including mass killing, apply to what the US did to Iraq.

          Really. The US sold people into sex trafficking? Forcibly impregnated people? Sterilized people? Enslaved people?

          You really need to learn to make your point without resorting to such dramatic overreach that it becomes impossible to actually engage with your argument.

        8. I guess I have a hard time taking that seriously. I don’t mean to be rude, but how can you seriously claim that there’s a better alternative to capitalism without being able to describe that alternative?

          My sole basis for saying that there’s a better alternative is that there is an alternative that is devoid of labor exploitation (i.e. ownership of means of production) and all that follows it. How exactly the needs of disabled people are going to be fulfilled isn’t something you or I could possibly hope to fully understand in our current social context, because a communist society would be fundamentally different from this one.

          Which group of people in Iraq have we systematically destroyed?

          Iraqi Muslims. The fact that they aren’t completely erased from the world doesn’t imply that they did not suffer from genocide and continue to suffer from its aftermath.

          You really don’t see the problem with using genocide to describe any war or invasion, ever?

          It wasn’t just a war or invasion, though…and I did not define genocide to include any invasion or war.

          I think the decision to invade Iraq was a shitty one, and we hurt a lot of innocent people we didn’t need to, but calling it genocide makes a mockery of the word.

          Hmm…let’s see here: US soldiers blowing up mosques for fun, raping and murdering Iraqi women and girls as a sport, destroying Islamic architecture, mowing down thousands of civilians (including children) and laughing while doing it, systematically torturing innocent people, tormenting Muslims who don’t want to leave their religion, and generally dehumanizing Iraqi Muslims constantly in order to shed off all remorse for destroying their lives and their country…

          Nope, doesn’t sound like genocide to me! /sarcasm

          Really. The US sold people into sex trafficking? Forcibly impregnated people? Sterilized people? Enslaved people?

          Even if those specific things didn’t happen (and I doubt that’s the case), I have nothing but hatred for this genocidal, imperialist nation and have no interest in giving it the benefit of the doubt. After all, this country already does all of the above within its own borders. Pretty much every imperialist nation I’ve heard of has done at least one of those things extensively and without end.

          The US invaded Iraq to profit from the mass destruction of Iraqi Muslims and their homelands, among other imperialist reasons. Just because it’s not often described as a genocide doesn’t mean it isn’t, and as a Muslim myself I have every fucking right to label it as one. I was not the target of the genocidal Islamophobia in Iraq, but as a fellow Muslim at least, I feel the weight of the losses that occurred when the US military came to fuck up the entire country of Iraq.

        9. Even if those specific things didn’t happen (and I doubt that’s the case), I have nothing but hatred for this genocidal, imperialist nation and have no interest in giving it the benefit of the doubt.

          You can understand why it’s frustrating to learn that when you made a specific claim about our activities in Iraq, you were making things up. You said “we did the vast majority of these things.” Now that you’re falling back on “well, it’s plausible it happened I guess,” it becomes hard to trust anything else you say.

          You get that making general statements about how much you hate the US is irrelevant to the false factual claims you’ve now repeatedly made, right?

          After all, this country already does all of the above within its own borders.

          Really? The US forcibly impregnates people within it’s own borders?

          You have a serious problem with throwing wild claims around that I don’t think even you believe, and then ducking the question when I point it out.

          as a Muslim myself I have every fucking right to label it as one.

          And I have the right to call my landlord hiking my rent a crime against humanity, but it doesn’t make it so.

          Also, as a member of a mostly-Muslim family, I’m pretty comfortable calling bullshit on your claim that all billion Muslims worldwide have some special insight or knowledge into the life of Iraqis. The fact your beliefs are somewhat related (though honestly, different branches of Islam aren’t necessarily any more closely related than some branches of Islam to some branches of Christianty) doesn’t really mean much.

        10. My sole basis for saying that there’s a better alternative is that there is an alternative that is devoid of labor exploitation (i.e. ownership of means of production) and all that follows it.

          But how can you know that’s true if you can’t begin to describe or imagine that alternative?

          How exactly the needs of disabled people are going to be fulfilled isn’t something you or I could possibly hope to fully understand in our current social context, because a communist society would be fundamentally different from this one.

          Super comforting. Can you understand why people may be hesitant to support your ideology when your argument amounts to “I have no idea how you’ll avoid starving in a gutter, but I’m totally sure it’ll work out?”

          Anyways, you avoided my broader point, which is that modern medicine (to take on small example) requires economic specialization, which requires some form of monetary exchange (hard to trade coronary bypasses for chickens). In a world where everything is free, what’s the incentive to show up at the syringe-making factory?

  7. I would imagine any political system is going to be inherently unequal–you have to set certain definitions of your nation and that means you are going to exclude people.

    But I guess her point is that thinking the system (democracy, equality, the republic) even on a good day can be applied equally to all people is impossible.

    Like, for example, Obamacare (sorry, I don’t mean to beat up on it)—we are hoping it’s going to help all people equally, but it will probably codify existing hierarchies.

  8. So let’s pick one of the tenants of Classical Liberalism, say, the right to a free press. Is anyone here prepared to argue that, in order to avoid being racist, we need to start censoring newspapers?

    Or maybe we can act like adults and understand that adherents to any given broad philosophical movement will have both good and bad ideas, and we can take the good ones (like a free press or human rights) and leave the bad ones (like racism).

    Jesus, academic philosophers have their heads so far up their own asses they must chew their food twice.

    1. My impression is not that Sheth is arguing that every single tenet of classic liberalism should be eliminated, but that as a society, we have to stop acting like racism is an aberration in liberal thought/philosophy rather than a tenet of it in order to properly deal with its consequences.

      1. Sure, but I don’t know that I believe “liberal thought/philosophy” is a discrete entity with specific tenants across all times and places. I’m not sure why we should tie believing in a free press or free religion to racism or the scientific method, aside from the fact that those beliefs happened to coincide in some of the same people, historically speaking.

        1. I don’t think liberalism has to transcend time and place to trace a direct line of descent connecting John Locke, the Enlightenment, the US Constitution, and current thought surrounding that constitution.

      2. I mean, what does making that acknowledgement actually translate to, in terms of real world impact?

        1. I don’t know what Sheth thinks, because I do think that’s beyond the scope of the interview, and I haven’t read her book. But, in my opinion, practically, in the US, it would mean admitting and accepting the racism that the country, including the Constitution is based on, making an attempt at amends for that racism, and no longer lionizing the Constitution as transcending time in its “wisdom” or prioritizing what its writers “intended,” to begin with. It would mean acknowledging racial difference as a shaping force in people’s lives, and abandoning the myth of “color-blindness.”

        2. All of which are pretty standard goals of the social justice movement, and none of which seem particularly specific to a theory of liberalism.

          I’m not trying to be difficult or hostile here, I just have a tough time translating the academia-speak into something useful. Prolonged discussions of the ‘real’ meaning of abstract concepts like ‘liberalism’ seem primarily self-referential. Ultimately, it might be a fun form of intellectual game to play with other similarly inclined academics, but it doesn’t seem to produce much.

  9. asily three-quarters of the philosophy grad students I have met have been big jerks, in a very particular kind of humorless way and personally judgey way

    Based on your past posts I’d say that three quarters is fairly low in terms of number of shitheads in any given academic field you’ve had dealings with,

  10. Ah, yes, I see we’ve reached that magical point in which critique of the status quo is met with demands to provide a fully detailed blueprint of our ideal society and any uncertainty means it definitely won’t work and we’re stupid to even say anything. If only we would just argue FOR the status quo from WITHIN the status quo, all this shit would be so much easier!

  11. @ludlow22

    I wasn’t making anything up. If you want to be super pedantic here, then yes, maybe “vast majority of aspects of genocide” should have been simply “majority of aspects of genocide.” Regardless, the US invasion of Iraq qualifies as genocide because the US military aimed to systematically destroy Iraqi Muslims and occupy their land. The fact that they enthusiastically destroyed mosques and other Iraqi cultural sites should be sufficient evidence of that, in my view. And then you had Abu Ghraib. I honestly don’t understand how someone, especially one who comes from a Muslim family, wouldn’t see that as genocide. I’m not calling it genocide merely to expand the definition of the term – I’m using it because I think it’s entirely appropriate. Genocide exists in various manifestations, and as many Black authors contend, anti-black racism is itself genocidal due to the overwhelming extent of oppression Black people face for existing.

    As for forced impregnation of women in the US, due to lack of legal protections Native women are frequently raped by white men with impunity, and there are undoubtedly many rapes that have resulted in pregnancy against their will. It’s just like how the early white male settlers subjugated Native people by raping Native women and forcibly impregnating them so as to destroy the foundations of Native societies. The only difference between then and now, as far as I know, is that instead of open support for white male rapists of Native women, the white rapists are enabled and supported through legal and administrative indifference to the suffering of Native people and particularly Native women.

    1. As for forced impregnation of women in the US, due to lack of legal protections Native women are frequently raped by white men with impunity, and there are undoubtedly many rapes that have resulted in pregnancy against their will.

      OK, this is getting embarrassing. I’m out.

      1. Not only rape, but there was a huge push for white women to marry native men in order to civilize them. This began around the time Indian death schools were created to steal then murder children. Today, the US states make a pretty penny stealing Native kids, using their parents religious beliefs or the fact they’re poor as justification for child protective services removing them and handing them out to white families as if our children were shelter dogs in need of good homes. And during colonizatiom, raping and impregnating Native women was a sneaky way white men stole land, because many tribes passed possessions and land via the mother. When Natives wised up and changed that practice to males inheriting,then marrying Native men became an easy way to steal land.

        Also, many Nations had gender roles, but they were fluid. Men and women could ” break” gender roles and not only did the tribe not care, they often honored the men and women who did. Female warriors were held in the highest regard. Males who took on female roles were honored as healers and considered to have spiritual power.

        As far as trade goes, we traded with numerous other cultures and some were even from other continents. Amazingly enough, we also had our own governments, cities and cleared land for agriculture. Oh and even roads. We didn’t all live on the plains in teepees.

        It’s like we were civilized people.

    2. And it’s not just Native women who face this form of genocide. Many other women of color do as well, particularly Black women, who according to many Black feminists and womanists, are considered “unrapeable” in society and are therefore subject to heightened danger of sexual violence that white women never experience due to their privilege.

      As for why my identity as a Muslim is relevant in judging whether the Iraqi invasion was genocidal, I said that because my life experiences with Islamophobia enables me to legitimately determine whether certain forms of Islamophobia are genocidal. And more importantly, many Iraqi Muslims themselves say that what the US committed was genocide.

      Regarding communism: I just told you that no one is capable of coming up with a perfect blueprint of a society under full communism. There are just too many contextual and historical contingencies to take into account that we won’t arrive at understanding until or unless capitalism is actually thrown into a crisis and communist revolution ensues. Before then, all I can do is hope that some day soon, the working class will seize the levers of production and abolish the entire class system. Capitalism may seem like a neutral state of affairs, but nothing can be more “un-neutral” than an economic system in which the labor of producers is stolen for the sake of profit and land and resources are taken away from those who depend on it for subsistence. Previous societies existed that had not a single trace of value exchange, being based only on the communal production of subsistence. Many of them didn’t even have gender as an organizing principle of society. They were destroyed only as a result of imperialism.

      1. Many of them didn’t even have gender as an organizing principle of society.

        Name two societies without gender roles.

        Previous societies existed that had not a single trace of value exchange, being based only on the communal production of subsistence.

        Yeah, and I’ve explained at length how that’s incompatible with modern technology.

        There are just too many contextual and historical contingencies to take into account that we won’t arrive at understanding until or unless capitalism is actually thrown into a crisis and communist revolution ensues.

        Again, it’s hard to understand how you can claim you know there’s a better alternative to capitalism when you keep emphasizing how impossible it is to describe said alternative.

        Basically, you’re asking us to trust that if we just get rid of the current system, it’ll be replaced by something better, but you have no idea what that something is, and neither does anyone else. That’s an act of near-religious faith that to me seems totally incompatible with setting beneficial public policy.

        You can keep repeating “the details are unknowable,” but that’s not a counterpoint to my argument, that is my argument. Considering how many people’s lives depend on modern technology, the cavalier attitude- we’ll burn our current system to the ground with zero idea what’ll replace it, and hope for the best- seems awfully problematic.

        1. Name two societies without gender roles.

          I’m afraid I can’t name two such societies at the top of my head. What I do know is that there have been many precolonial societies (and probably many more that have been lost in historical records) that have lacked gendered division of labor, and therefore gender itself. Most, if not all of them, have been wiped out through colonialism and genocide.

          And putting aside the existence of such societies, I personally believe that not only gender is a social construct, but also the notion of biological sex, the latter being merely a scientific justification of the former. Sex is a discursive construct that was invented, just like any other human biology concept, as a standard categorization of human bodies. Just like the concept of biological race, it exists as nothing more than an idea that we invented oursenves and organize our knowledge of human and non-human biology around. Therefore, because this category of sex developed within specific bodies of knowledge, it isn’t a universal concept that transcends discourse, and so societies can exist without even the notion of sex existing among people. Certainly at least, a future society could exist without any notion of gendered bodies.

          Yeah, and I’ve explained at length how [subsistence production is] incompatible with modern technology.

          You don’t know that, I don’t know that – no one can say that a society without exploitative labor relations is, by nature, incompatible with modern technology. Maybe full communism will entail a further development of the modern technology developed under capitalism, maybe it will remain the same, or maybe it will altogether fade away eventually, yielding to alternate technologies. In short, your statement is pure speculation.

          Again, it’s hard to understand how you can claim you know there’s a better alternative to capitalism when you keep emphasizing how impossible it is to describe said alternative.

          I don’t know about you, but I don’t want to live in a society organized around profit and developed through labor exploitation and theft of resources (inevitably at the expense of the environment). Capitalist society is a miserable, cruel existence for everyone except those at the very top of the socioeconomic ladder. Poverty itself is a direct result of the ruling class keeping the majority of wealth for themselves.

          Basically, you’re asking us to trust that if we just get rid of the current system, it’ll be replaced by something better, but you have no idea what that something is, and neither does anyone else. That’s an act of near-religious faith that to me seems totally incompatible with setting beneficial public policy.

          I do know what that something is: no bosses, no masters, no beauracrats, no police, no poverty, no seizure of land and resources, no exploitation of labor for the sake of profit – the existence of all of those and more are what result from capitalism, and so full communism will be able to come into existence when all of those are gone. I can say that much, and I have stated this multiple times in no uncertain terms. Beyond that, I simply can’t provide a blueprint for exactly how the finer details of full communism will work out.

        2. I’m afraid I can’t name two such societies at the top of my head. What I do know is that there have been many precolonial societies (and probably many more that have been lost in historical records) that have lacked gendered division of labor, and therefore gender itself.

          So you can’t name any, but you know they exist. OK, then.

          This is like the fourth or fifth time you’ve made a very forceful, confident assertion, that turned out to be totally made up in your head. I mean, you claimed the US is currently engaged in forcible impregnation as a method of genocide. Maybe take a step back and look at how you form arguments.

          I do know what that something is: no bosses, no masters, no beauracrats, no police, no poverty, no seizure of land and resources, no exploitation of labor for the sake of profit – the existence of all of those and more are what result from capitalism, and so full communism will be able to come into existence when all of those are gone. I can say that much, and I have stated this multiple times in no uncertain terms. Beyond that, I simply can’t provide a blueprint for exactly how the finer details of full communism will work out.

          You’ve been very clear that:

          1) Communism will have tons of super awesome features, but
          2) You have literally zero idea how those features will actually function in the real world, but
          3) You’re super, super sure they will, for no particular reason

          Repeating those statements over and over isn’t a response to my critique, it literally is my critique. The reason I don’t take you seriously is because your argument relies on magical thinking.

        3. Name two societies without gender roles.

          1) Steve
          2) Mary

          This brought a smile to my face. Silly, I know.

        4. Fat Steve is in a complicated feminist relationship with his partner Mary, meaning neither believe in perpetuating gender normativity just because one has a penis and other a vagina!

        5. It was simply a play on the double meaning of the expression ‘name something’. Ludlow used the expression to mean ‘give me an example of a thing’ but I, with faux obtuseness, used it to mean ‘give the thing a name’.

          #NotFunnyWhenYouHaveToExplainiIt

      2. Previous societies existed that had not a single trace of value exchange, being based only on the communal production of subsistence.

        The long-distance exchange of goods in trade has (as proven by the recovery of such goods in archaeological excavations) existed around the world for at least the last 10,000 years, or for at least as long as something resembling urban/town life has existed. In other words, I’m highly skeptical that your point has any relevance to the world we live in.

        1. True, trade-based economy has existed for ages (although certainly there have existed economies without any reliance on trade, such as gift economies). But the exchange of goods is entirely compatible with a classless society. What’s incompatible with full communism is a market economy that has a medium of exchange such as money, as I believe that market economy constitutes the foundation of capitalist economic relations. So as I see it, the existence of societies that lack market economies is relevant to my point.

        2. What’s incompatible with full communism is a market economy that has a medium of exchange such as money,

          So how are you supposed to trade goods that are perishable, or produced at different times, or need to be traded across long distances, or involve trade among more than two parties?

          Your worldview is charmingly simplistic, but breaks down when exposed to the real world so rapidly that even you can’t articulate any coherent expression of what it would look like beyond.

  12. Capitalist society is a miserable, cruel existence for everyone except those at the very top of the socioeconomic ladder.

    You can’t describe a material system of communism that would adhere to these idealized terms because it contradicts fundamental material truths of human existence: limited resources, object permanence, material needs, and the ability to imagine a better future.

    “Back to Zizek and his key error. If you take him at his word, there are “inherent contradictions” in the very structure of capitalism that make it untenable; no one needs to destroy it, it will implode on itself. Similarly, the media moguls don’t have to be in cahoots with capitalists because the media itself (that structure) is part of capitalism (it creates wants, branding, etc.)

    The media creating wants and branding has nothing to do with capitalism, it has everything to do with human psychology. Even in a perfect (communist) utopia you could not kill off capitalism because capitalism is the sublimation, the ‘correcting’ of the natural human impulse of envy. It either bubbles up and corrupts you, or you create a natural outlet for it. There aren’t alternatives. If global capitalism implodes from the weight of its inherent contradictions, it will simply be replaced by… global capitalism. Because it’s run by humans.”

    citation:
    http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2010/09/the_legend_of_steven_colbert.html

    1. I personally believe that those “fundamental material truths” are inseparable from the material conditions they originate from (except perhaps for object permenance, which I don’t really see as contrary to communism in any conceivable sense). And I also believe that material conditions are capable of changing, just as they have in the past. I do think that, with the advent of a genuine crisis of global capitalism, global capitalism may simply rise again, but that doesn’t preclude the possibility of it also being abolished, giving way to full communism.

      Also, when it comes to Marxists, I hardly see Zizek as anyone but a fool who either repeats things that have already been talked about in much better precision and nuance by others, or has no idea what he’s talking about. The author of that article you linked to is even worse. All he’s doing is making assumptions about the Truths of Human Existence, such as that capitalism is a permanent mode of existence because humans are inherently inclined towards capitalism, without actually addressing any of Zizek’s (admittedly silly) theoretical claims. And beyond that, his insistence that it’s solely the people’s fault, not the system’s fault reflects a bizarrely simplistic view of humanity, seemingly denying that people could in any way be shaped by social conditions.

      1. And I also believe that material conditions are capable of changing, just as they have in the past

        The material conditions I cited have never changed, and never will. I will repeat for clarity and emphasis and specificity:

        “limited resources, object permanence, material needs, and the ability to imagine a better future.”

        We will always need material resources to continue living, they will always be limited, we will always be able to remember where they were yesterday, and we will always want to use them again, faster, tomorrow.

        1. At least until we’re ruled by friendly AIs with the ability to construct complex objects from the molecules up.

        2. We will always need material resources to continue living, they will always be limited, we will always be able to remember where they were yesterday, and we will always want to use them again, faster, tomorrow.

          I fail to see how this these things automatically ensure the survival of capitalism, across all historical contexts. For instance, yes, material needs are always a thing, but how they are manifested and in what system they appear can vary. Same goes for the other things you mentioned (except perhaps object permenance, since I still don’t see the relevance of that phenomenon here in a discussion of economic structuring of society). Just because they can’t completely disappear doesn’t mean they are immutable.

  13. It is my opinion that the choice between “present us with an ideal utopia that we can achieve imminently” and “accept the way things are” is a false one. Nobody can produce the blueprint for any kind of utopia–that’s why it’s called “utopia” (i.e. “nowhere”). But that doesn’t mean that capitalism is above criticism or opposition. I doubt that anybody in 13th-century England could have described the 20th century, but that doesn’t mean that no alternative to feudalism is/was possible (Wat Tyler certainly thought there was), or that feudalism is superior to capitalism.

    So Aliyah, I think you’re playing a fool’s game in trying to satisfy the demands of that choice, and ludlow22, I think the parameters you set up are completely unnecessary.

    1. I’m not certain what parameters you are referring to here. I don’t see any parameter that ludlow22 has set up that is completely unnecessary.

      I do see a lot of completely unnecessary questioning of her identity performance, an they look like pretty hurtful things to hear:

      Listen, I know you’re of color. But I also know that you’re not Native or Black and Latin (the races that inordinately suffered under the type of things I’ve cited). So I’m not sure you really have sufficient background to really appreciate the conversation here.

      I honestly don’t understand how someone, especially one who comes from a Muslim family, wouldn’t see that as genocide.

      And, uh, I selected Aronowitz because, frankly, I thought that selecting a white man as the example would potentially impress you a little bit more, since you seem to place great stock in them.

      1. How are you going to set up your socially just society?

        Is what I was referring to. The idea that you must have an ideal society ready to go in your pocket to say that capitalism is inherently exploitative is a silly one.

        Aaliyah said all those things? There was a day or two when comments were coming in so thick and fast that I didn’t read all of them by far, but I thought I’d been following this strand of things. I haven’t gotten a giraffe alert (though the last comment reads to me less like a questioning of her ID and more like saying she is, in the poster’s opinion, racist, which is a different thing).

        1. Is what I was referring to

          Ah yeah I see that.

          Aaliyah said all those things?

          No she did not, and I’m sorry I implied that she did. I was talking about this comment thread generally and you were talking about Aaliyah and ludlow22’s thread specifically so I should have either clarified or stayed within the scope.

          It looks like everyone agrees that claims of liberalism and scientific truth have led to oppression and class based violence and racism and been used to justify them as well. I only see disagreement on whether this is inherent to scienctific inquiry, or socially just goals. I see ludlow22 pushing back against lumping many different types of liberal thought under one umbrella system and then declaring that system inherently racist. It sounds like she thinks we can identify where racism enters otherwise sensible human endeavors to stop it rather than condemning all current human endeavor as racist and hoping for a radically different utopian alternative to emerge. I tend to agree with her more often than not in these comments. I also sympathize with frustration when people make claims of better alternatives and then labeling them as fundamentally unknowable. It reminds me of Rabbis talking about the World to Come, or the coming of the Messiah.

          1. As someone who grew up in a Marxist household, I agree that I set very little store by “when the revolution comes” talk (it is very messianic). That’s actually why I don’t have any interest in “blueprint for utopia” talk. I just don’t think that blueprint is necessary to criticize capitalism–even if contemporary capitalism is the peak of civilization, and I must admit I have serious doubts on that, that doesn’t exempt it from criticism. So I tend to lose patience with that conversation on both sides; I didn’t mean to imply that it was Ludlow22’s fault.

            Thanks for the clarification–no worries on it. In the future, particularly when comments are coming in large batches (like, I step away from my email for twenty minutes and come back to 15 of them or something), if something seems questionable, by all means send a giraffe alert, because I do start to skim sometimes. Sorry I wasn’t on top of this thread.

      2. Pointing out how one’s racial background is correlative with a knowledge of racial oppression isn’t unfair, unless you think that people who benefit from white supremacy have a knowledge of it that is as intimate and well-informed as that experiential knowledge of those who have to live through it every single day, without escape.

        Certainly, I think it would be very inappropriate for me to say that, as a non-Black, non-Native, non-Latina WOC, I can authoritatively talk about the experiences specific to antiblackness, anti-Native racism, and anti-Latina racism. What I have said about those individual racial oppressions has come entirely from what I have heard from people of those racial backgrounds.

        1. Pointing out how one’s racial background is correlative with a knowledge of racial oppression isn’t unfair

          That’s unfortunately not what these comments looked like to me.
          What I saw was “You may be of color, but not of the right color to understand my point, that’s why you disagree with me” and “you don’t sound very Muslim to me” and “You seem to really love white men”, all of which do not look cool to me. They all look like ad hominem claims regarding her adherence to norms of identity performance and avoidance of addressing the actual content of her expressed disagreement.

        2. Thanks, Broseidon. I was OK with the first comment, insofar as I’m not NDN or First Peoples and I’m OK with someone pointing out that this might affect my perspective (even if I ended up disagreeing anyways). That said, this:

          I honestly don’t understand how someone, especially one who comes from a Muslim family, wouldn’t see that as genocide.

          Felt like a really nasty attempt to weaponize my identity against me, and make me feel like I am (yet again) betraying my Muslim relatives by not taking the ‘proper Muslim’ stance on an issue. Meanwhile, this:

          I thought that selecting a white man as the example would potentially impress you a little bit more, since you seem to place great stock in them.

          Was just unmitigated douchbaggery. By the way, you nailed my point here:

          It looks like everyone agrees that claims of liberalism and scientific truth have led to oppression and class based violence and racism and been used to justify them as well. I only see disagreement on whether this is inherent to scienctific inquiry, or socially just goals. I see ludlow22 pushing back against lumping many different types of liberal thought under one umbrella system and then declaring that system inherently racist. It sounds like she thinks we can identify where racism enters otherwise sensible human endeavors to stop it rather than condemning all current human endeavor as racist and hoping for a radically different utopian alternative to emerge.

          Thanks for putting it more clearly than I (evidently) did.

        3. I agree with your assessment, ludlow22. I’m sorry I wasn’t more vigilant. Your or your family’s Muslim-ness is yours to discuss if you want to and nobody else’s to toss at you, and the last…it reads as nastiness to me, but not nastiness that has anything to do with your identity, if you see what I mean.

        4. Thanks, but no need to apologize! Unless people are actually trolling (which nobody was), I’m pretty much OK responding directly to comments I think are problematic. Not to cast aspersions on anyone who feels differently; I totally get why moderation is important/valuable.

        5. ludlow, I didn’t try to “weaponize” anything against you, especially not your Muslim background. I also didn’t imply that you were engaging in any kind of betrayal – I only made a direct reference to your Muslim family because that is how you referenced your own identity as a Muslim, not to imply that you were being unjust to them. What I said was merely that I found it curious that you, as someone who undoubtedly has first-hand knowledge about what Islamophobia is like, fails to see the genocidal Islamophobia inherent in the Invasion of Iraq. It really does genuinely surprise me. It doesn’t make you an “improper Muslim” or whatever, though, and I never questioned your identity.

          Nevertheless, I think the reason you believe that it wasn’t genocide is that you have an bizarrely narrow definition of genocide in mind, which erases countless genocidal experiences that many ethnic groups have faced, often in their daily lives. Just because someone isn’t using the term genocide in the sense that you’re familiar with doesn’t mean they’re wrong, and I find it troubling that you don’t even seem to be considering that in this argument. I hope I’m wrong about this somehow.

          Hell, Native people in this very thread have been talking about how certain forms of anti-Native racism are genocidal – yet you aren’t even considering their viewpoints. Or, at least I haven’t seen such consideration from you so far. In my case, when I told you about forced rape and impregation of Native women in the US, you seemngly responded with incredulity.

          As for the other comment you have an issue with, I can’t speak for it entirely, but perhaps you should consider that many people who find your responses dismissive of their racialized experiences may be inclined to respond not so kindly to you. If you’re going to say something like “I don’t think that’s racism” to someone who is talking about racism that they experience and you don’t, you shouldn’t expect to always be coddled, even though you’re a WOC yourself.

        6. In my case, when I told you about forced rape and impregation of Native women in the US, you seemngly responded with incredulity.

          The incredulity wasn’t for the fact that it happens- of course genocide against Native people in the US is a thing.

          The incredulity was for your intellectual dishonesty. You listed various tactics of genocide, like enslavement, mass murder, and forced impregnation. You then claimed the US does all of those things to it’s own people, within it’s own borders.

          It’s painfully obvious that the fact that rapists can get away with rape in the US, isn’t evidence the US is engaged in forcible impregnation as a method of genocide. There’s an undeniable difference in context, scale, intent and outcome. You said something absurd, got called out for it, and scrambled.

        7. If you’re going to say something like “I don’t think that’s racism” to someone who is talking about racism that they experience and you don’t, you shouldn’t expect to always be coddled, even though you’re a WOC yourself.

          I totally agree. Now show me where in this thread any POC talked about racism they experienced, and I responded “no, that’s not racist.”

          I’m so sick of your dishonesty, Aaliyah. You’ve made up so many things on this thread, and you have yet to take responsibility for any of it.

        8. Widespread rape comes with widespread forced impregnation, even though (obviously) not all rapes result in pregnancy. The US government enables this reproductive violence, because settler colonialism is an inherent political program of the US. This is reflected in its consistently anti-Native laws. It commits genocide against Native Americans because it inherently profits from stealing Native land, resources, and children, killing off Native people by various means, and destroying the foundations of Native societies (one of those means of destruction being the violence of anti-Native misogyny). So yes, the US is responsible for causing these rapes, including the ones that result in forced impregnation. They are features in the US juridical system rather than bugs. Beyond that, it’s responsible for being a colonizer state in general.

          Some superficial changes have been made to the US government’s policies regarding its treatment of Native Americans, but its overall functioning remains the same as when it first came into being, on the very first day that the white settlers began to colonize North America. It started as a colonialist state, and it will always remain one until or unless it’s overthrown or somehow the US government decides to actually be accountable and magically stops its anti-Native racism. The last of which, as many Native anti-capitalists I know believe, is pretty much impossible.

        9. I totally agree. Now show me where in this thread any POC talked about racism they experienced, and I responded “no, that’s not racist.”

          Your argument with Drahill, who is Native. Here’s quote from you in this thread:

          What real medicine rejects is remedies based in superstition. I get why that might hurt some feelings, but it’s not racist.

          In response to a Native person lamenting the marginalization of bodies of medical knowledge specific to Native societies, you say that the only reason they were dominated and marginalized is that those alternative remedies were objectively wrong from a scientific perspective.

          Here’s the thing about science: it is fundamentally incapable of yielding objective truths about the world – objective in the sense that is a fact whose truth is independent of individual perspective. It produces empirical knowledge through its inferential basis. In other words, someone who uses the scientific method will derive conclusions about the world on the basis of attributing causality to an observed correlation of variables. But science is only ever capable of finding correlations, because causality technically doesn’t exist in a metaphysical. No one can objectively prove that the occurence of event Y entirely depends on the prior occurence of event X – they can, ultimately, only make an educated guess as to whether that’s the case. That is, whether X seems to occur in conjunction with Y.

          Now, before you jump at me for saying that scientific knowledge is founded on observations that can’t ever be actual truth claims, I should note that I don’t think the scientific method itself is inherently oppressive. In fact, the reliable bodies of knowledge that have been produced by scientific research have been immensely influential, and there is much to appreciate about science as a method of observing the empirical world. It’s been profoundly helpful for understanding the world (despite some flaws), so there’s nothing wrong with preserving it as an epistemological tool. Drahill also agrees, as stated here in this quote (which you somehow assumed was the same as them literally advocating the rejection of science as a valid tool of knowledge):

          If the European science model works, then fine. But that isn’t the problem. It’s that it’s an exclusionary model.

          Nevertheless, the fact that science is useful doesn’t actually mean that it has any basis in objective truth, in the strict sense.

          Anyway, by granting modern medical science an unquestioned philosophical status as the Supreme Form of Medical Knoweldge, you are implicitly saying that any body of knowledge that isn’t coherent according to scientific statements you consider to be reliable (which, as I said, are inferential rather than objectively true) is wrong by definition. How can you have the nerve to say that any of these bodies of knowledge are “bullshit” (your word choice), when you’re not even Native yourself? Neither of us has any justification in stating whether a model of medical knowledge produced by a Native culture is truthful. This is a textbook definition of talking over someone who experiences oppression that you do not, as a non-Native WOC.

          Even when Drahill literally pointed out that your perspective was limited by your non-Native identity, you just ignored them. You were completely dismissive of most of what they said to you. Please stop ignoring what the Native people in this thread have been saying.

        10. I notice you didn’t reply to this:

          I totally agree. Now show me where in this thread any POC talked about racism they experienced, and I responded “no, that’s not racist.”

          I assume that’s because you realized that no such example existed but didn’t feel like owning up to yet another instance of groundless personal attacks?

          We’re not arguing about whether the US is committing genocide against Native peoples. We’re not arguing about whether US policy on Native-American-related issues is good. It seems like you’re trying to win points by repeating off-topic anti-racist talking points, thereby implying I’ve said something opposed to said points. Cut it out.

          I’m somewhat confident that, in reality, you actually do understand the difference between the way genocidal regimes use forced impregnation as a tool to destroy/displace ethnic populations, and the fact that the US doesn’t do a good job preventing rape on reservations. I bet you also, on some level, understand that there’s a difference between the attempted destruction of racial/religious/ ethnic groups, and the invasion of Iraq, in which no effort was made to destroy the Iraqi people or culture on a systemic level. That said, I don’t really expect you to admit that (and I’m relatively certain your next post will now involve accusing me of supporting the invasion of Iraq, and an extended explanation of how colonialism is bad, so yay).

          I realize these posts are starting to come off as pretty hostile, but it’s incredibly frustrating trying to talk to you when you make wild accusations that you don’t back up, attack me personally for no particular reason, and constantly insert non-sequitors in some weird attempt to reframe the conversation around whether I agree with basic social justice principles.

        11. Actually Ludlow, your response to her post about forced impregnation of Natives did come off as dismissive,shitty and racist. And yes, the US still passively engages in it. The US did in fact actively engage in it for years…And now it’s simply a part of the system. Not only do they not try to prevent rape of Native women, they refuse to even prosecute..much less show up to arrest. When game wardens show up, you can’t even say with a straight face claim there is any effort made to stop, prevent, or seek justice. The US doesn’t ” do a good job at preventing rape on reservations” is pretty damn insulting. To fail at something means an effort, even half assed, is being made. There is no effort. Once we’re gone, the land is free to take. I mean, the government is still poisoning NDNS for hells sake, in order to steal resources. It’s not like breeding us out is beneath them. Jesus.
          And frankly, I think you could make a list of the various governing systems of the NDNS before colonization occured, throw a friggin dart and find a superior system than the one this invading, colonizing, genocidal US government has.

        12. Actually Ludlow, your response to her post about forced impregnation of Natives did come off as dismissive, shitty and racist.

          Dismissive, absolutely. Not of Natives, or the reality of sexual violence against Native American women, but of the weak attempt to justify the statements she’d made previously.

          Not only do they not try to prevent rape of Native women, they refuse to even prosecute..much less show up to arrest. When game wardens show up, you can’t even say with a straight face claim there is any effort made to stop, prevent, or seek justice. The US doesn’t ” do a good job at preventing rape on reservations” is pretty damn insulting.

          I’m not contending the point you think I am, and I apologize that my phasing was insulting. I’m really not arguing the US has anything but shitty policy towards Native Americans, either on the subject of rape or anything else. I’m not arguing that it’s not genocidal. I don’t and have never disagreed with any of the positions in your post.

          Despite Aaliyah’s multitudinous layers of obfuscation, literally the only question at stake this entire time has been “is the US government currently engaged in forcible impregnation as a tool of genocide.” Which, no, it’s not, despite all the other shitty things it is doing.

          I mean, the government is still poisoning NDNS for hells sake, in order to steal resources.

          Just for my own education, is that in reference to the uranium mining in Pine Ridge?

        13. Despite Aaliyah’s multitudinous layers of obfuscation, literally the only question at stake this entire time has been “is the US government currently engaged in forcible impregnation as a tool of genocide.” Which, no, it’s not, despite all the other shitty things it is doing.

          It is engaged in forced impregnation because it is complicit in its systematic perpetration. Whether through active policy or complete indifference to the suffering of Native women, the US accomplishes the task of constantly reproducing this systematic violence. Your argument amounts to nothing but special pleading, because you think that somehow it matters if the US is actively causing these rapes as opposed to allowing them to happen. But it doesn’t matter, because either way, the US is entirely responsible. This mass rape of Native women by white men with impunity would have never existed if it weren’t for the colonizers that came here and established a government based entirely on genocide.

        14. Also, ludlow, I have a longer comment in moderation in which I addressed your specific question about whether you denied any form of racism in this thread.

        15. And I’m saying yes, it is. Is someone still sitting in an office in Washington rubbing their hands together and planning it? No. Is it still ongoing from when they were? Absolutely.

    2. So Aliyah, I think you’re playing a fool’s game in trying to satisfy the demands of that choice, and ludlow22, I think the parameters you set up are completely unnecessary.

      I don’t disagree, insofar as I think capitalism is absolutely vulnerable to critique (and I think it needs to be critiqued! I critique it all the time!). What I’m pushing back against is not criticism of the status quo, but rather the argument for a different setup- specifically a money-less, market-less society.

      In other words, if you want to talk about problems with our current society, go right ahead- I’ll probably agree and I definitely wouldn’t demand you have a perfect alternative to do so. But if you want to support a different type of society (for example, a communist one), I’m absolutely going to critique features of the society you’re suggesting, and just saying “I have no idea how that those features work, but I’m sure they will” isn’t going to instill a ton of confidence.

      Similarly, if you proposed changing our society to a anarcho-libertarian economy, I’d probably have a lot of criticism of that idea even though I agree our current system has flaws.

      1. I see. That’s reasonable. I’m sorry I misunderstood–I thought your main issue was Aaliyah saying that capitalism was inherently exploitative.

        1. No worries!

          I thought your main issue was Aaliyah saying that capitalism was inherently exploitative.

          I do have mixed feelings about that premise; I tend to believe the degree of exploitation inherent in capitalism is largely a matter of public policy, and that when properly managed, capitalism probably leads to less exploitation and better outcomes than the alternatives. I tend to be immensely skeptical of people who claim societies with zero exploitation are possible, as long as exploitation includes “at least some people needing to work;” it seems incompatible with fundamental physical, not social, realities; food doesn’t grow itself.

          That said, I also think those better, exploitation-minimizing public policies only happen in response to sustained critique of the status quo, so while I’m not on board for the revolution, I’m definitely on the side of people explaining why the systems we have now are screwed up.

        2. food doesn’t grow itself.

          A communist society lacks labor in the value-productive sense, but the process of producing subsistence itself – which obviously requires work in the sense of basic production of subsistence – is literally an essential aspect in full communism, assuming that the labor also lacks any value-creating, market-mediated characteristic. The whole point of communism lacking labor exploitation is that people produce only what they need for themselves, rather than produce for someone else’s profit.

          Perhaps you should consider reading at least a little bit of Marxism, because even though it has a bad reputation nowadays and there are some aspects of it that don’t make any sense (at least in orthodox Marxism), it’s not entirely devoid of insight.

        3. A communist society lacks labor in the value-productive sense, but the process of producing subsistence itself – which obviously requires work in the sense of basic production of subsistence – is literally an essential aspect in full communism, assuming that the labor also lacks any value-creating, market-mediated characteristic. The whole point of communism lacking labor exploitation is that people produce only what they need for themselves, rather than produce for someone else’s profit.

          Question: if money doesn’t exist, how do the people who make the wires that go in pacemakers eat?

          This basically means that the people who can control enough land, and are able-bodied enough to work it, don’t starve like everyone else. Great.

          There’s nothing like the rich and comfortable members of the first world romanticizing farm life. Do you have any idea how back-breaking subsistence agriculture? How it means working 18 hour days, every day, year round, forever?

          Perhaps you should consider reading at least a little bit of Marxism,

          Oh, I have, extensively in college.

        4. Question: if money doesn’t exist, how do the people who make the wires that go in pacemakers eat?

          The purchase of commodities is non-existent under full communism due to the absence of the market. Everything would be free, pretty much.

          This basically means that the people who can control enough land, and are able-bodied enough to work it, don’t starve like everyone else. Great.

          The notion that one must work to avoid starvation is a capitalist one, and it certainly doesn’t apply to communism given that it lacks any medium of exchange like money, as I said above. When I say people under full communism “produce their own sustenance” I mean specifically that they don’t sell the fruits of their labor to any bosses (and this wasn’t some hidden meaning I implanted there – I think my point was pretty clear when I distinguished communism and capitalism on the basis of whether workers keep the full product of their labor). It doesn’t mean that only those who work will have access to resources.

        5. The notion that one must work to avoid starvation is a capitalist one

          Interesting. So you’re arguing with a straight face that Stone Age hunter-gatherer societies were capitalist? Is one guy on an island by himself living in a capitalist society?

          The purchase of commodities is non-existent under full communism due to the absence of the market. Everything would be free, pretty much.

          Thought experiment: imagine you could do anything you wanted with your life, including living in absolute leisure. What are the chances you choose manual labor as your career?

          Ok, now what are the chances enough people make that choice to take care of everyone else?

        6. Interesting. So you’re arguing with a straight face that Stone Age hunter-gatherer societies were capitalist? Is one guy on an island by himself living in a capitalist society?

          You’re assuming for no reason that labor in hunter-gatherer societies was organized in a work-or-starve dynamic. The fact that there were no such thing as private proerty implies that there was communal sharing of resources. That’s the exact opposite of capitalism.

          Thought experiment: imagine you could do anything you wanted with your life, including living in absolute leisure. What are the chances you choose manual labor as your career?

          Ok, now what are the chances enough people make that choice to take care of everyone else?

          I’m not going to answer these questions because I think the questions themselves are irrelevant to this discussion, due to your hidden assumption that it’s inconceivable that anyone would produce for their subsistence without the intent to exchange their labor for wages.

          A worker’s desire for wages is the main reason she works for the capitalist class, but the wage system itself is at the heart of capitalist production. Capitalism enforces its own conditions for existence. It creates the need to work for a wage, a need that by definition doesn’t exist outside of capitalism, because capitalism compels the working class to access the means of their subsistence from the capitalist class through exchanging their labor time for wages. It is capitalism that has placed this constraint on the working class’ ability to survive.

        7. You’re assuming for no reason that labor in hunter-gatherer societies was organized in a work-or-starve dynamic.

          What happens to one person standing in the wilderness who does no work?

        8. What happens to one person standing in the wilderness who does no work?

          I fail to see the relevance of that quesiton because a society by definition is comprised of multiple people.

          That said, if there is literally only one person who exists, in isolation from every other human being in existence, then that means that it is literally impossible for capitalism to exist, because without more than one individual, there cannot be 1) a system of relations between a working class and a capitalist class (two classes, which minimally requires two people occupying two distinct structural positions in a binary system) that appropriates labor contribution from the former and 2) a market that mediates exchange, which functions through a medium such as money.

          A single-person society is inherently classless and marketless, and therefore also communist. There is no such thing as a work-or-starve dynamic in such a communist “society” because that dynamic exists as a relation that minimally involves more than one individual – it’s an exercise of one class’ power over another class. Without a market, there is no exchange of commodities and money, and therefore no necessity for money whatsoever – and as a result of money lacking any necessity, there is no compelling need to exchange labor time for a wage that is used to access resources. Instead, all resources would be freely accessible.

          Anyway, I’m really tired of arguing as well, so I’m also going to stop responding in this thread.

  14. Ok, I’m going to stop responding to these threads; things are getting repetitive and likely to poison future interactions, both of which are unproductive. All the best.

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