Owning my food crazy

111 thoughts on Owning my food crazy

1. Using crazy is a particularly ableist word. Glad you feel better though – I’m definitely overweight because of neuropathy in my limbs and back pain, so anything that lessens it is good in my mind.

2. As someone who has dealt with disordered eating habits for pretty much her whole adult life, I reclaim the word crazy, just as I reclaim the word fat. I understand if other people don’t feel comfortable with it, but I’m not going to change the way I refer to my own mental and emotional issues, just as I’m not going to change the way I refer to my body.

3. Reclaming a word means you’re using it in a positive way. Where’s the sentence that you using it in a positive way? I know I’m visually impaired, but I didn’t *think* I missed it.

4. [possible trigger-warning for talking about my own “food crazy”]

   I can’t own a scale. I can’t know my weight, because I will obsess over it. The last time I went to a gym, all the machines had numbers on them (how many reps, how many miles, and, worst of all, estimates of how many calories burned) and I had to get the fuck out. I obsess over numbers. It’s one thing to count the pennies I save by making tea at work instead of buying it from Tim Horton’s and to check in on my monthly interest accruals or memorize every grade I’ve gotten since high school – at least those things, while obsessive, tend to make me feel better.

   But numbers and my body are a recipe for… things I can’t even name for fear of evoking them. Sometimes I feel like I deliberately do things I think are unhealthy because at least the parameters of that are something I know – everything else feels like a slippery slope to madness and self-harm.

5. Not necessarily. I reclaim the word fat, but I don’t see fat as particularly positive, just not negative. I use it as a descriptor. I see my crazy as part of me, something that I have to work with and deal with, just as I have to work with and deal with limitations of my fat body (like my belly getting in the way during yoga or airplane seats or social stigma).

   I’ll admit, I don’t particularly like that you’re policing me on the way that I describe my own mental state. I don’t think that’s what activism is about.

6. Shoshie, I totally refer to my PTSD as “my crazy.” It is mine, and it’s a word I get to use for myself, but no one else does. I get it, and identify with it. It’s clear to me that you’re not using it as a slur, the way many people do. It is just a state of being.

   Anyway, fascinating post. Those are difficult feelings for someone who strives for HAES acceptance, and hope you’re framing it as you making yourself healthy at your size – which is what you did, even if there was some weight loss associated with it.

7. Thank you so much for this! I’ve recently lost some weight due to a change in diet where I eliminated sugar for 4 months to increase my energy and begin a healthier more simple lifestyle. The weight slid off, but I was left with lingering feelings wondering why I was so happy I lost weight, instead of enjoying the fact that my body just felt better. I’m still left questioning that if I’m so fat positive, why do I want to be skinnier? I’m glad there are more of us experiencing this.

8. I’ll admit, I don’t particularly like that you’re policing me on the way that I describe my own mental state. I don’t think that’s what activism is about.

   I agree that you get to label your own shit however the fuck you want. It’s not like you’re calling anyone else’s stuff ‘crazy’.

9. I love low carb eating. I’m terrified of type-2 diabetes (a metabolic disorder that some research says is caused by our modern refined-carb diets). I have a personal goal to be lighter – I’m still working on my fattitude – but I’ve noticed some other things:

   libido+
   anxiety-
   depression-
   skin quality+
   energy+
   sleep quality+
   seasonal allergies-
   asthma-

10. I’ve discovered (don’t laugh) that talking the HAES/FA talk is a lot easier than, um, walking the walk (bad metaphor).

    Pregnancy weight gain pushed me up to an official in-betweenie shape and an “overweight” BMI. And suddenly I’m trash talking my body to other women, I’m contemplating diets, and I’m developing a serious hatred of my belly roll.

    I credit HAES and years of reading FA stuff, though, with the ability to combat this internal dialogue with other, more productive scripts. I’ve managed to avoid dieting so far, and have focused on exercise and eating well. But it’s shockingly hard to walk out in a swimsuit and know that you are not even close to the beauty ideal.

    I ended up running a 5k 8 weeks postpartum just to prove to myself that I was not…something (fat? motherly? incapable? I’m not sure). That’s wrapped up not only in fat issues but in mothers and motherly bodies as bad….hello, yummy mummy Issues.

    (let’s reiterate…I’m not fat, I’m TAB, and I’m hella hourglassy. I look kind of like Hendricks. so this could be a lot harder. I’m just shocked at how hard it IS).

    OTOH, I have noticed the weight gain making certain sports stuff harder. Running bothered my knees now, and this chest is just…inconvenient in the summer heat. Lululemon no longer carries my size. (Oh, first world problems. But hopefully relevant to the general thrust of the OP).

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12. If you’re interested in low-carb eating that doesn’t really have a weight-loss or diet bend to it, try looking at the glycemic index’s website: http://www.glycemicindex.com/

    It talks about low-carb and slow-carb rich diets and stuff like that without the whole “low-carb makes you skinny” type of talk. It’s pretty nice.

    I had a sort of cognitive dissonance after being pregnant. I was very active and into weight training and fighting before the pregnancy and had a pretty fair amount of muscle for a woman. During the pregnancy, due to workout limitations, I lost a good deal of the muscle. I was taken aback by how quickly after birth I wanted to get back into the gym and reclaim what I had before. Some of my friends said I was “denying my motherly shape.” But its hard to accept a shape that, on some level, happened TO you as opposed to a conscious decision to shape one’s own body (at least, that was my experience).

    Bodily acceptance is tough in the best of times. I found it to be extremely complex, because, well, our relationships with our bodies are complex. There’s a lot of factors at work, not all of which are external. That was the problem for me – accepting that maybe, the shape I had wasn’t the one I wanted and that a conscious choice to change it didn’t make me weak or bad.

13. I used to severely restrict calories/fast and am intensely triggered by measuring portions or counting calories. Even keeping a food diary can launch me into an obsessive spiral. Several months ago I started taking Wellbutrin, which is known to be in anorectic in many people, and which totally happens to me. So I started keeping a food diary to make sure I was consuming enough food/calories. It was incredibly hard mentally/emotionally. I was a little relieved that the Wellbutrin was triggering headaches and migraines, because it was an extra excuse to stop taking it. You are totally and entirely not alone in going through this. Good luck managing your diet and your body, I hope your health (physical and mental) continues improving. 🙂

14. OTOH, I have noticed the weight gain making certain sports stuff harder. Running bothered my knees now, and this chest is just…inconvenient in the summer heat.

    Preach.

15. This resonates so closely with how I feel. One of the reasons I struggle with the HAES movement is while I completely support them as a social justice movement, I have such severe body dysmorphia I cannot seem to identify on a personal level. I feel very isolated when I read/listen to those discussions because internally, I simply cannot (yet) have positive associations with my own body.

    I manage the dysmorphia by essentially ignoring it, but I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been derailed by inadvertently dropping weight. Someone comments that I look nice and I start to think, “Well, maybe this time…” Then its three months later and I’m severely malnurished. I wish I could put it in a corner and not obsess, but I guess I’m just not that strong yet.

16. During the pregnancy, due to workout limitations, I lost a good deal of the muscle. I was taken aback by how quickly after birth I wanted to get back into the gym and reclaim what I had before. Some of my friends said I was “denying my motherly shape.” But its hard to accept a shape that, on some level, happened TO you as opposed to a conscious decision to shape one’s own body (at least, that was my experience).

    Yes.

    Like most things, there’s a balance between accepting that things will never be exactly The Same and fighting for the best shape you can be in NOW. Which, fwiw, can sometimes be stronger than before.

17. @10chava–apologies for asking for a tutorial, but what is TAB? It must mean something like in-between. Not searchable online or I’d do it myself.

18. TAB = temporarily able-bodied

19. Pregnancy weight gain pushed me up to an official in-betweenie shape and an “overweight” BMI. And suddenly I’m trash talking my body to other women, I’m contemplating diets, and I’m developing a serious hatred of my belly roll.

    I know there are a lot of people who will disgree with me, but I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with wanting to change your body. I work out a lot because I like the way I look, and the way I feel, more when I am more muscular and less flabby. That isn’t a statement about other people’s bodies, but it is a valid feeling about mine. So if you’d be happier belly roll, and you can get rid of it safely (physically and mentally), then by all means more power to you. HAES doesn’t mean you have to accept the body you have and make no changes, ever, or you’re somehow endorsing fat-hate.

    I recruited a friend of mine who is a naturopath, and we started looking into diet-related options to explain the inflammation.

    I know this will probably upset you, but please, think twice before going to a naturopath/chiropractor/homeopath/crystal healer etc. for medical advice. Evidence-based medicine is always the way to go; the woo is, at best, a placebo. If you want I’d be happy to have a longer conversation with you about the evidence somewhere it won’t be a derail, but for the moment, the salient point is that naturopathy is a psuedoscience founded on empiraclly untrue premises (to be precise, the existence of a magical energy which can be channeled by specially trained practitioners to heal people).

    I said ‘at best’ a placebo because at worst, naturopathy kills people. Among other reasons, naturopaths frequently do their best to convince their patients not to get vaccinated. They are quacks.

20. I’m loving the discussion here, and I plan on responding more thoroughly later in the day (I’m on lunch break right now), but I feel the need to respond to amblingalong.

    I agree that evidence-based medicine is awesome and the way to go, but that doesn’t mean that wholistic approaches are quakery. The only medical professionals who managed to be helpful at all during my whole ordeal were my friend, who suggested that changing my diet might help, my physical therapist, who’s also trained in massage and acupuncture, and my nutritionist, who also studied at a school of natural medicine. They all have science/medical backgrounds along with their “alternative” backgrounds. And I did my own fair bit of research in the literature.

    I will note that they all trained at Bastyr, a local school of natural medicine, which is one of only a couple accredited schools of natural medicine in the US. Bastyr does train people in some areas that I find suspect (homeopathy and chiropracty, to name two), but most of the Bastyr graduates that I’ve spoken with have been very much in favor of evidence-based medicine– they just prefer to take a wholistic approach, which seems to be especially helpful in areas like chronic pain, where many medical doctors just shrug their shoulders and offer steroids/NSAIDs. And all of the naturopaths that I know are very strong advocates for vaccination.

    Anyways, not that there aren’t quacks out there, but I don’t think it’s fair to generalize.

21. HAES doesn’t mean you have to accept the body you have and make no changes, ever, or you’re somehow endorsing fat-hate.

    I have tried to think of it that way, but largely, I think most people don’t think of HAES that way. The dominant school of thought I’ve encountered centers on healthy eating and appropriate physical activity and whatever physical form you happen to take is the best form for you. The idea of intentional changing one’s shape does not seem to come into it much. Now, that is perfectly fine – there’s nothing wrong with de-prioritizing one’s appearance or shape. But I do wonder whether there is any space in bodily acceptance for people who do intentionally set out to create a certain shape or form. For example – I gained a lot of weight in my thighs. When I went back to exercising, the way they rubbed and moved caused me some serious issues. So, I resolved to prioritize losing weight in my legs to reduce their size. Did I do it because I hated my body? I don’t think so (though I’ve been told I do). My decision was motivated out of a desire to, well, be able to run and do some cardio without chafing.

    I suppose to me, the issue is motivation. HAES does absolutely oppose weight change that is motivated by external forces, or fat-hate, or anything harmful or negative. And I’m glad it does. But I find that very different than an athlete or anybiody else choosing to change certain body parts based upon practical need or desire. But then again, who defines that?

22. Alright, I’m chiming in. I am excited and nervous to begin participating in the feministe community.I’ll begin my own guest blogging stint later in the month; in the meantime, I’m completely absorbed in everything offered here. I feel intimidated and overwhelmed to join the discussion, but decided that this post was the final motivator.
    I completely relate to Shoshie’s post, and think that I probably validate how much weight and body issues can be very much mental & external. I am very petite, sometimes “tiny,” but struggle daily with obsession. At a very young age people started to call me “skinny” with varying levels of admiration; it quickly became ingrained in my identity. Now, if people don’t mention my size within a self-determined amount of days/weeks/months, I panic. Prone to obsession, I have to be very careful about what I am thinking and counting and measuring.
    I recently had a discussion with a good friend who is a pilates trainer and “health guru” of sorts, and she talked about the way women admire one another for their size and weight. She would like to encourage women to talk to each other with a different rhetoric. If we need to remark on one another’s appearance, why not “healthy, happy, or beautiful” instead of making it all about size? I found her perspective refreshing, especially in Los Angeles!
    Thank you, Shoshie, for your honesty and authenticity!

23. I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with wanting to change your body.

    Yes, but chava spoke about “trash talking [her] body to other women.” This can be very hurtful, both to her and the other women hearing the negative comments. I wonder what their bodies looked like and how they may have intenalized these comments? Also, most people don’t take good care of things they hate, and this includes bodies. Hate or trash talk is not really a place to start anything positive.

    I don’t say this as a criticism of chava- loving your body, especially after changes, and especially if those changes trespass societal expectations, can be very, very hard. But I don’t think one’s dislike of her body is something that should be encouraged by others.

    There may be nothing inherently wrong with wanting to change your body, but disliking your body can often cause real harm, emotional and otherwise. There is also something wrong with assuming that you (or someone else) can necessarily change your (or her) body, if only you (or she) worked harder, etc. The results you get by working out are not universal.

24. So glad to hear that you feel so much better! I can relate as I found out 2 years ago that I’m gluten intolerant. This was after 7 years mounting health problems that started with my gaining 40 lbs in about 4 months. Which according to my doctor was simply my being so lazy about exercise and food during my frosh year of Uni (hence the 7 years to figure out that it was something external).

    Now, I can actual enjoy myself, even though I’m overweight. Last week, I *nearly* summitted a mountain. I was so stiff the next day, but so proud of myself.

    I still have days where the diet watching and weight aspect comes to the forefront. I hate when people comment about how much it must suck to be gluten-free (umm, I’d rather that than feeling sick after a meal), or about how healthy I look now that I’m losing weight (not that I’m not as pale as I used to be due to a lack of iron?). And just this morning, I stepped on the Wii Fit and when it got to the BMI screen, the sound of disappointment in the program that I was ‘overweight’ actually resulted in excitement on my part. You mean I’m not ‘obese’ anymore? Party time!

25. Yes, but chava spoke about “trash talking [her] body to other women.” This can be very hurtful, both to her and the other women hearing the negative comments. I wonder what their bodies looked like and how they may have intenalized these comments? Also, most people don’t take good care of things they hate, and this includes bodies. Hate or trash talk is not really a place to start anything positive.

    Exactly. And I *know* its harmful, and have been surprised to suddenly start hearing myself say it, after a good three decades of training myself to not do so. I was just pointing out the power of these cultural scripts around how one “should” behave.

26. I suppose to me, the issue is motivation. HAES does absolutely oppose weight change that is motivated by external forces, or fat-hate, or anything harmful or negative. And I’m glad it does. But I find that very different than an athlete or anybiody else choosing to change certain body parts based upon practical need or desire. But then again, who defines that?

    I hear you. I think we each have the right to choose what is best for ourselves. We should each be able to choose to (attempt to) change our bodies or to choose to not to. I don’t have any issues with people who choose to change (or attempt to change) their own bodies.

    The problems I have are 1) society supports fat people in feeling obligated to try to change their bodies and 2) not everyone is able to change their bodies, even when they do all the “right” things.

    A relative of mine wants to lose weight so that she can wipe her own ass. She is fat, but she is also short and has disproportionately short arms. She has been doing everything to try to lose weight, from very moderate “lifestyle changes” to very, very restrictive medically supervised low calorie diets. She does not lose weight. She laments to me along the lines of “but the reason I want to lose weight is so legitmiate!” And she is right. But this does not change the fact that her body will not cooperate. She may as well try to grow longer arms.

    I am another person for whom weight loss is almost impossible. So, to me, HAES means that I can work out and eat healthy foods, and that I can feel good about these things on their own without feeling bad that the scale isn’t moving downwards.

27. Shoshie, can we be friends?

    I’m in Seattle, and my low-carb friendly naturopath also trained at Bastyr and likes evidence.
    Email is required for posts so you know how to find me 🙂

28. Also, most people don’t take good care of things they hate, and this includes bodies. Hate or trash talk is not really a place to start anything positive… But I don’t think one’s dislike of her body is something that should be encouraged by others.

    Totally behind you here, and I’m sorry if I gave the impression I wasn’t.

    There may be nothing inherently wrong with wanting to change your body, but disliking your body can often cause real harm, emotional and otherwise.

    Yes and no. Forgive me if I don’t articulate this well, but there are a number of things I dislike about myself- I can be overly argumentative, for example- and that dislike gives me a motivation to change. Similarly, there have historically been things I dislike about my body- like not being able to run more than a mile without getting badly out of breath- and this dislike has given me the motivation to run more often. I guess what I’m trying to elucidate is a distinction between disliking parts of yourself or your body, and disliking yourself. I’m not sure if I’m doing a good job explaining the distinction I see, but I hesitate to say that self-criticism is never healthy, even if that extends to something related to your body.

    There is also something wrong with assuming that you (or someone else) can necessarily change your (or her) body, if only you (or she) worked harder, etc. The results you get by working out are not universal.

    Again, no argument here; I know my own body, what it can do, and what it cannot. I don’t presume to know anyone else’s.

29. I’m not sure if I’m doing a good job explaining the distinction I see, but I hesitate to say that self-criticism is never healthy, even if that extends to something related to your body.

    Agreed. I can never get 100% behind HAES because sometimes the rhetoric is too extreme about how you must never judge yourself nor imply that various weights may have upsides and downsides, even when motivated by “good” motivations. (And god forbid the word diet get used in any context, even just as “the things you eat.”)

30. this thread is VERY VERY VERY triggering!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

31. be WARNED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

32. I’m not sure if I’m doing a good job explaining the distinction I see, but I hesitate to say that self-criticism is never healthy, even if that extends to something related to your body.

    I do see what you are saying, and I agree that self-criticism is sometimes healthy. For example, if one notices that zie acts like an jerk to others (or certain groups of people) and is bothered by it, well, zie should be bothered and should work to change.

    Where I disagree with body criticism is that our bodies are not something that we have done wrong. There is no wrong way to have a body.

    I also understand the desire to push oneself to the best of one’s ability, for example in athletic pursuits. I have done this myself. But to me in order to be healthy this would not come from a place of dislike or disgust that one could ‘only’ run a mile (or whatever), but more from a place of awe at what the body can do and a desire to build on that. But that is me.

    However, I see being critical of or trying to change one’s behavior (in your example, being argumentative) or one’s talents/abilities (in your example, running stamina) as VERY different from being critical of or trying to change the physical size, shape, color, texture, whatever, of one’s body. It may work for you, but I think that for most folks, dislike of one’s body or body parts does not lead them to happiness.

33. There is also a significant difference between being critical and being hateful. I may, at times, decide that something I have written needs fuller explanation, or note that I tend to fly off the handle when talking to my sister, but in neither case is that the same as saying “I hate my writing” or “my writing is worthless” or “my temper is disgusting.” Those statements–which are cognates with those women often make about their bodies or parts of their bodies–encodes revulsion and discourage improvement because they imply that the thing being discussed is inherently bad. If I thought my writing was worthless, I wouldn’t work on improving it; I’d just stop writing.

34. It may work for you, but I think that for most folks, dislike of one’s body or body parts does not lead them to happiness.

    As long as you acknowledge that there are significant exceptions to that rule.

35. There is also a significant difference between being critical and being hateful.

    Yes, EG, that is something I was grasping at in my mind and couldn’t quite articulate. Thanks.

    Another part of what I am getting at is this: if you hate the fact that you snap at people in the mornings, or that you smoke, or don’t exercise, or don’t read books, or whatever, these are all behaviors that you are choosing (at least on some level) and can usually directly change by altering your behavior (assuming you do not have a disability preventing exercise or reading, etc.).

    However, your body size or shape is not a behavior. It is not something that you are choosing or can *directly* change. Some people are able to take indirect action to alter it (different food and exercise choices), but at the end of the day it is up to your body and not you to make the bodily changes. You can take the actions, but the actions are all indirect. So, this is one reason I think being critical of body size and shape becomes potentially dangerous and sets one up for disappointment and more self loathing.

36. Not necessarily. I reclaim the word fat, but I don’t see fat as particularly positive, just not negative.

    I will stand up for Shoshie on this one. She always addresses me as ‘Fat Steve’ which tells me she gets why I self refer as that. I’m not saying I mind when people call me ‘Steve’, but if anyone was leaving off the ‘Fat’ so as not to offend me, it’s not necessary. Even when I was 6 ft tall and 160 lbs I still was a bit flabby (certainly didn’t have a 6-pack or even a 2-pack) though when fully clothed you could be forgiven for thinking I would be chiseled underneath. It’s not that I don’t exercise, I just don’t seem to gain muscle.

37. Donna, I’m sorry to say that I wasn’t thinking of trans people when I made that comment. I think the conversation around body and body part dislike for trans people is very different. I think the big difference is that when trans people dislike and/or change their bodies, they are often doing so *in spite* of intense societal pressure to conform to a certain gender assignment given at birth instead of *because of* intense societal pressure to conform to a narrow beauty or “health” ideal.

38. I also understand the desire to push oneself to the best of one’s ability, for example in athletic pursuits. I have done this myself. But to me in order to be healthy this would not come from a place of dislike or disgust that one could ‘only’ run a mile (or whatever), but more from a place of awe at what the body can do and a desire to build on that. But that is me.

    Disgust is a strong word, but I certainly dislike some things about my body. Some of them cannot be changed (having to sleep every night is such odious waste of time), and some can be. I guess the way I’d put it is that I see my body as a tool, and I sometimes need to reconfigure it to accomplish new tasks.

    Agreed. I can never get 100% behind HAES because sometimes the rhetoric is too extreme about how you must never judge yourself nor imply that various weights may have upsides and downsides, even when motivated by “good” motivations. (And god forbid the word diet get used in any context, even just as “the things you eat.”)

    I guess I’d chalk that up to the people, not the ideology, though I agree with your main point. HAESizers (is there a better term?) are used to getting huge amounts of shit from the world, and so are super primed to respond to insults/attacks/challenges even when they aren’t there. Bringing up how losing weight was right for you could sound a lot like one of those, even if it is absolutely true.

    Similarly, I am occasionally frustrated by what feels like anti-science attacks from some of the HAES crowd; there are some medical facts about fatness that may appear to clash with the ideology. But what I think really drives this is years or decades of having people say “science proves your body is bad, you horrible fatty,’ as so criticizing a HAES statement with a statistic about weight and longevity can feel a lot like a continuation of that attack.

    There is also a significant difference between being critical and being hateful. I may, at times, decide that something I have written needs fuller explanation, or note that I tend to fly off the handle when talking to my sister, but in neither case is that the same as saying “I hate my writing” or “my writing is worthless” or “my temper is disgusting.” Those statements–which are cognates with those women often make about their bodies or parts of their bodies–encodes revulsion and discourage improvement because they imply that the thing being discussed is inherently bad. If I thought my writing was worthless, I wouldn’t work on improving it; I’d just stop writing.

    Well said.

39. gwyllion- Is there an additional trigger warning I could use that you think would be more helpful?

40. My husband’s side of the family has a high incidence of congenital lipodystrophy. Think skinny, muscular people with type II diabetes and high cholesterol.

    My (very thin) brother in-law just developed some of the symptoms in his early 20s. Now, this isn’t caused my diet and diet won’t resolve it. Niether will statins. What does his primary care doctor do?

    Give him a list of foods to avoid (including olive oil, wtf) and suggests diet and exercise. Because all health problems, ever, are caused by fat.

41. However, your body size or shape is not a behavior.

    Bodies are just a bunch of organic molecules interacting in a particularly complex way; your personality is encoded in matter and energy just as much as your weight. Changing the shape of your body and changing your personality are both physical changes; your decision not to snap at people in the morning is every bit as much a material change as the five pounds you’ve lost, it’s just much harder to observe. For some people, effecting one change will be easier than the other, and for different people, it will be the other way around.

    Though of course, on some level, it’s a mistake to refer to us ‘changing’ things about ourselves at all, since the decision to make that change is simply another set of physical interactions.

42. A note about HAES:

    As far as I understand it, HAES doesn’t dictate what behaviors you should prioritize or what tools you should use. HAES is about looking at health holistically, including mental health, and determining what actions would be most effective at promoting health in an individual. It is radical in that it approaches health as *individual*, not as a series of statistics or warnings about what behaviors are too risky. For one person, a vegetarian diet might be best. For another, one high in animal products. One person might benefit from a very active lifestyle. Another from a more sedentary one. We all have different needs: physical, mental, emotional, cultural, etc. HAES is about focusing on those needs, rather than an ideal body size. And, while the focus is on health at every *size*, I think that the principles generalize well. It’s not that anyone can be healthy at every size, it’s that body sizes are diverse, and that’s OK. Activity levels and diets are diverse, and that’s OK. Actions to promote health are diverse, and that’s OK.

    On wanting to change your body, I think that falls in line with approaching mental and physical health as all one piece. Correct me if I’m wrong, Donna (or anyone else), but gender dysphoria is often really helped by surgery. Eating disorders aren’t cured by liposuction or dieting. In fact dieting or surgery will probably just feed into the disorder. Gender dysphoria isn’t going to be helped by encouraging the person to embrace their assigned gender. However, at least for me, disordered eating can be sloooooooowly overcome through work on body acceptance and removing the focus from body size to overall health (though that damn numbers game is so *incredibly* hard to move past).

43. My (very thin) brother in-law just developed some of the symptoms in his early 20s. Now, this isn’t caused my diet and diet won’t resolve it. Niether will statins. What does his primary care doctor do? Give him a list of foods to avoid (including olive oil, wtf) and suggests diet and exercise. Because all health problems, ever, are caused by fat.

    I’m a little bit confused- not arguing, confused- because I thought lipodystrophy was largely about the way your body processed fats, specifically high blood fat and fat redistribution to atypical parts of your body. I’m not a doctor, and I’m sure you know more about this than I do, but at face value the idea that changing the amount of fats you consume/not eating certain foods/burning more calories through excercise could help manage an illness characterized by high blood fat (among other things).

    In summary, not all health problems are caused by fat, but if lipodystrophy is fat-related, doesn’t the doctor giving fat-related advice make sense?

44. Thank you for this post. I see where you’re coming from, and admire your attempt to get comfortable with your crazy. I’m working on it myself. No where near there, alas.

    AND thank you for standing up for naturopathy. You did it much more politely than I would have. An ND (also trained at Bastyr) solved my seizure problem several years ago (we’re way past placebo effect here.) The idea that NDs don’t practice evidence-based medicine is ridiculous.

45. Well, no. Aside from the fact that diet has a dubious effect on cholesterol, period, this type of lipodystrophy doesn’t respond *at all* to diet or statins. Zetia is effective. Now, I’m not saying eating junk and sitting around 24/7 would help, but it isn’t the primary factor here one way or the other.

    I suppose it might intuitively make sense to his current doctor, but its bad medical advice and stems from the assumption that diet and exercise will Cure All The Things.

    Once you have the insulin resistance and diabetes caused by the condition, you want to limit sugar intake, obviously. Evidence for pro-actively (before symptoms appear) restricting sugars and fats is spotty, AFAIK.

46. As far as I understand it, HAES doesn’t dictate what behaviors you should prioritize or what tools you should use. HAES is about looking at health holistically, including mental health, and determining what actions would be most effective at promoting health in an individual.

    I think you’re right, but this is a bit like saying ‘feminism is the idea that women are human beings equal to men.’ It doesn’t stop some feminists from criticizing women who choose to wear make-up or heels, and it doesn’t stop some HAESizers (really need a better term. factavists?) from criticizing people who say ‘I chose to try to lose weight, because I would feel more comfortable.’

47. Well, no.

    Thanks, always happy to learn something new!

48. You can choose to not have a cigarette. You can choose to not have a hamburger. You cannot choose to lose five pounds. You can hope to and take actions that you think will cause you to- and that may actually cause you to. But the actual weight loss is not an action you took, it is a result – and a result that cannot be necessarily predicted. This does not mean that weight loss is harder than, for example, stopping smoking. For some people it will be easier. All it means is that weight loss is not a direct action or behavior.

49. amblingalong-

    Sure, but just because some feminists do something doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t agree with feminism. Same with FA or HAES. Just because some FA activists are hostile to thin people doesn’t mean that the principles of FA are wrong, just as the existence of man-hating feminists doesn’t mean that the principles of feminism are wrong.

    Also, I don’t think it’s a problem to critique dieting, just as I don’t think it’s wrong to critique heels and make up. I think it’s wrong to pounce on an individual for engaging in one of those practices, but I don’t think any of them are free from criticism. And, for what it’s worth, I wear both heels and make up, though I prefer my creepy toe shoes.

50. Another thing that I think is important is finding appropriate solutions to problems. There may be a problem of finding clothing that fits or thighs that rub together or rashes in between skin folds or seats that are too small. But there are solutions to these things beyond “lose weight”. The problem is that those solutions aren’t presented or are thought to be unfeasible, even though they’re often simpler and more achievable than long-term weight-loss.

51. This is a great post, and it has generated some really interesting discussions. I thought I would throw out a couple of things from my own past (and ongoing) experiences with body and food-related issues, in the hopes that there might be something positive to take away from them.

    I spent most of my adolescence and early adulthood maintaining some kind of highly restrictive relationship with food, while at the same time engaging in high levels of daily physical activity. While I wasn’t necessarily obsessed with numbers, I was definitely obsessed with certain feelings: the feeling of being light, of being empty, the feeling of being disciplined and “in control”. Even when I was in recovery from that time and following a vegan diet, my motivation was at least 75% the belief that it would permit me to “eat normal” without gaining weight. It has taken a long time and a lot of work to develop a relationship with food that is not based on weight loss and denial, and although the eating habits I currently have are still complicated, I feel that I’m in a much healthier place today.

    The main reason I wanted to share any of this was that during my years of recovery, I overheard something that actually had a really profound impact on how I perceived my own body (as well as other people’s), and also on how I approached diet and exercise. I was on some cardio machine at the gym, and there was an aerobic class going on next to me. The (able-bodied) instructor was introducing herself to the class, saying that she’d been a fitness instructor, personal trainer and athlete her whole life. She was also 40 years old, had had two kids, and her doctor kept telling her she needed to lose weight. She explained to the class that fitness and well-being was not a number on a scale or a swimsuit size, and that even though her doctor felt otherwise, she knew she was in good health because she felt strong, she felt energetic, and she could engage in the physical activities she enjoyed without feeling limited by her body. She also said that while we may have some control over some aspects of our physical bodies some of the time, our general body shape was something that would not change: you might become a slimmer pear or a more muscled pear, but you would still be a pear. What I took away from my eavesdropping was that A) fitness is not a simple equation of diet + exercise = model body, and B) the achievement of model body is not only an unrealistic goal, it’s also a shitty motivator.

    Since then, I choose the food I put in my mouth and the exercise I do with my body based on how much strength and energy they give me in return. I exercise because it helps me avoid injury, because it enables me to go about my day without feeling hampered by a lack of strength, and because it helps me sleep better at night. I don’t always follow my own good advice, and my own food crazy is something I continue to manage on a daily basis, but I am stronger and wiser today for a little eavesdropping I did years ago.

52. Two years ago, I lost 35 pounds off of my 5-foot very small frame. It was one of the hardest things I’ve ever done. Predictably, I’ve gained about six back and engaged in a fair amount of self-flagellation as a result. What I cognitively know and am working to emotionally accept is that there is a big difference between weight that endangers your health and weight that doesn’t conform to cultural ideals. The last six pounds is a matter of vanity that I hope someday to grow up enough to accept.

    My strongest motivator for at least pretending to get over this is the hope that my daughter never internalizes the expectation women internalize that ties their worth to their waistlines.

53. There may be a problem of finding clothing that fits or thighs that rub together or rashes in between skin folds or seats that are too small. But there are solutions to these things beyond “lose weight”. The problem is that those solutions aren’t presented or are thought to be unfeasible, even though they’re often simpler and more achievable than long-term weight-loss.

    This so hard.

    I was talking to someone recently about Store X’s yoga clothes, how they only go up to Y size, and how I am size Y+some. The healthy solution for my body (because I could lose body mass, but not by healthy means) would be to find clothing in my size.

    But the other person’s solution was — “If you do yoga for long enough, maybe you’ll shed those few extra pounds.” Which: 1) none of my pounds are “extra;” I am using all of them; 2) I have been doing yoga for going on 13 years; when is this hypothetical “long enough”?

54. This is one of those uniquely difficult situations, but it sounds like you are really caring for yourself. It’s also a good reminder that Health at Every Size is truly a weight-neutral approach – sometimes people do lose weight as a side-effect when they are doing what is right by their body (a lot of the time not, but it does happen on occasion, usually when other physical conditions are in play.) But because we live in a culture that makes your weight The Most Important Thing About You, it is so hard to keep that side-effect off to the side, where it should be, instead of running the whole show. Your awareness will stand you in good stead – my own food crazy shows up from time to time when I unintentionally lose or gain weight (which I do in response to stress.) Looking it right in the eye, valuing it for what it is (mostly cultural training) and nothing more, and then choosing how to act on it (by caring for myself in the best way I know how) is what keeps me feeling anchored. I’m glad you wrote about this. I haven’t read the comments, because I admit I am a bit afraid, but I wanted to chime in that I can really relate.

    I also love the fact that you found the dietary pattern that works for your body all by yourself. It kind of goes to show you that the feedback you get from yourself can often trump the dietary knowledge of professionals.

55. Eeeeee! The Fat Nutritionist commented on my post! I feel all a-flutter.

    Seriously, I love your blog and have read it cover-to-cover.

56. re: different kinds of body dysmorphia and intersections with dysphoria:

    One of the things I struggle with is how one aspect of my… unsettlement with my body interferes with my ability to understand other aspects of identity and body issues I’ve tried to work through.

    I have a lot of hatred for my body based on fatness and over the years I have had to step back from anything “health” related to do with it because I came to realize that my “health” lens was too warped to be useful. As I said in my comment above, for me certain “healthy” behaviours feel like gateways into self-harm because there is a part of my brain that is eager to use changing my diet and increasing my exercise as a way to inflict pain on myself. The way that I have been taught to understand these concepts is too loaded with misinformation, misogyny, and self-loathing for me to trust myself with them. I personally have come to see that I cannot meaningfully differentiate between “critical” and “hateful” and that I can’t start trying to deal with the former until I’ve dealt with the latter.

    And, as I said, it also interferes with other aspects of my identity, specifically my sexuality and my gender identity. I can’t tell if I am genuinely asexual or if my actual sexual inclinations have been railroaded by a paralyzing fear of my own body (it’s probably a combination of both, to some extent). I also can’t really explore the feelings of dissatisfaction I’ve had with certain “female” aspects of my body and desires for “male” aspects because I’m not sure how much of it is genuine gender-related dysmorphia and how much of it is an internalized stereotype that “male” bodies are innately less fatty and more muscular, athletic, etc. (And, it must be said, I do solidly identify as cis because frankly I don’t have any confidence that I do understand what it would be to be a trans man or genderqueer person and I don’t want anything I say here to be taken as representative of what all or any trans person feels about their body.) The only thing I can do there is explore the identity side of gender because the “body” question feels completely unanswerable – I hate and feel out of place in my body, but I don’t really know why. For my own sanity, I’m trying to embrace it as it is, as my hatred for it tends to result in me trying to avoid completely (rather difficult, considering it’s my body, including avoiding basic medical care because I’d rather pretend it doesn’t exist at all.

    I like to think that I am slowly overcoming this incredibly pathological relationship with the physical structure that constitutes the basis of my entire existence (because the mind-body dualism stuff really is a crock – no body, no mind), but what floors me is that I could get to this point with it at all. I don’t remember any particular incident in my upbringing that led me to this – just a lifetime onslaught of the same superficial ideas. It’s not even the dysfunctionality of it that blows my mind – it’s how bloody

    typical

    it is. How can we have created a society in which this level of self-hatred is so routine and fundamental?

57. thank you for standing up for naturopathy.

    It seems pretty obvious to me that naturopathy is demonstrable un- and anti-scientific quackery. To be concrete, let’s take homeopathy: if your movement endorses homeopathy, it is totally fucked.

    To the folks here who think naturopathy is a good idea, what is your notion of a bad one? That is, what kind of evidence would you require in order to accept that a given putative health practice is not conducive to health?

    I am not, to be clear, claiming that naturopaths never give sound advice. I am asking why people think that the sound advice is due to the naturopathy, when naturopathy also recommends treatments which are fundamentally incompatible with basic chemistry.

    1. Not all naturopathic doctors endorse homeopathy. And last I checked, allopathic doctors haven’t been perfect with their advice either. Anyway, any good MD now recognises that an ND can do good complementary medicine. Several clinics in my town have both in the same clinic, and in my province, NDs can prescribe most of the same meds that MDs can. I’m not talking about “holistic practioners”, I’m talking about Naturopathic Doctors. HUGE difference.

       But we’re derailing this thread, so I’ll leave it at that.

58. I really don’t want to get sidetracked with a discussion of alternative medicine, but, needless to say, there are many different naturopathic approaches, some of which are evidence-based and some of which are not. None of the treatments that my ND friend suggested involved homeopathy. They were strictly focused on making sure that my vitamin levels were in check and that I didn’t have any foods that were causing the chronic pain. She also gave me resources for gentle yoga and meditation for pain management, both of which have helped immensely.

    I said it before and I’ll say it again: the most competent medical practitioners that I saw during this whole ordeal were ones with a background in both medicine/science and natural medicine. My sports medicine doctor and my rheumatologist both just shrugged their shoulders and suggested meds (more NSAIDs, which would probably aggravate the SIBO even further). No one here is advocating homeopathy or energy healing or any other sort of quackery.

59. You’re pretty much following the paleo diet. This type of story is so common, because it works! I’m glad you managed to fix your joint pain. I’ve been there and I know how great it is to be able to live again. Check out these sites if you’re curious:
    http://www.paleoforwomen.com/
    http://www.marksdailyapple.com/#axzz23aQlavpi

60. Let me address the “derailing” concern first. Folks in this thread are discussing health and bodies. The problem with medicine is that you’re trying to reverse-engineer and hack an extraordinarily complex system: the most fundamental elements of this discipline were unknown even 60 years ago, and many important questions remain open. The evidence, then, is necessarily noisy and demanding of careful interpretation. At the same time, our brains are primed for mal-inference by a plethora of cognitive biases about bodily integrity, contamination, even the ability to gain essential properties by ingesting like substances, which make reasoning about health and disease even more difficult. It really is worthwhile to talk about what statistical inference is, what counts as evidence, &c. Under the hood, this is what these conversations are really about: the only question is how informed a discussion you want to have.

    Furthermore, this stuff actually harms people. People with treatable problems are deprived of existing therapies through hucksterism, and people with untreatable problems are paying for false hope. If the topic is raised uncritically in a conversation, it cannot be impertinent to point out that it is quackery, and that any practitioner who even allows themselves to be associated with it deserves extreme scrutiny. Imagine taking your car to a mechanic who belongs to the Society of Perpetual Motion Machinists. Whether she tries to sell you a perpetual motion machine or not, you have strong evidence that she does not understand engines.

    I find it dismaying that both replies to my comment pursued lines of reply that I specified in advance as uncompelling: naturopaths do sometimes give good advice, but how does that particular piece of evidence support naturopathy’s very strong and highly inconsilient claims? I hate to do this, but here goes.

    These arguments take the following form:

    1. If naturopathy is true, then I will benefit from following its dicta.
    2. Its dicta include things like “limit caffeine, alcohol and stress”, “eat a well-balanced diet and engage in physical exercise” and “get a good night’s sleep”.
    3. I have benefited from those dicta.
    4. (Therefore) naturopathy is true.

    The problem here is that the argument is not valid (in the technical sense that its conclusion must be true provided the truth of the premises.) At best, it is an inductive argument that might serve to raise or lower our estimate of the probability of naturopathy’s truth. How do we figure out how much? Bayes’ theorem, of course!

    Define:
    N – naturopathy is true.
    B – One benefits from the truisms mentioned above.

    We are interested in the probability that naturopathy is true, given that one benefits from observing the truisms. Formally, we wish to find P(N|B). Bayes’ theorem tells us that:

    P(N|B) = (P(B|N)P(N))/P(B).

    where P(N) and P(B) are the prior probabilities of N and B: they summarize all of our knowledge about the world obtained so far before we perform the “experiment”. The problem with arguing from B to N lies in neglecting to ask about P(N) and P(B): what was the prior estimate of the probability of N (how does it square with the rest the known world) and how likely is it that I would have benefited from the advice whether naturopathy were true or not?

    In point of fact, P(N) is not distinguishable from zero, and P(B) is pretty high. In fact, B is really just common sense. Informally: if naturopathy is suspect to begin with, and we would expect to observe the given evidence anyway, then observing the evidence does very little to support the hypothesis of naturopathy.

    Not all naturopathic doctors endorse homeopathy

    Which is more significant: that not all do, or that there is even one that does? Per wikipedia:

    A 2004 survey determined the most commonly prescribed naturopathic therapeutics in Washington State and Connecticut were botanical medicines, vitamins, minerals, homeopathy, and allergy treatments.[42]

    Imagine a law firm defensively insisting that not all of its partners are illiterate.

    allopathic doctors haven’t been perfect with their advice either

    The term “allopathic” is preposterous: it essentially means “believing that pharmaceuticals and surgery actually work”. Again, wikipedia:

    Allopathic medicine is an expression commonly used by homeopaths and proponents of other forms of alternative medicine to refer to mainstream medical use of pharmacologically active agents or physical interventions to treat or suppress symptoms or pathophysiologic processes of diseases or conditions.[1] The expression was coined in 1810 by the creator of homeopathy, Samuel Hahnemann (1755–1843). Never accepted as a mainstream scientific term, it was adopted by alternative medicine advocates to refer pejoratively to mainstream medicine.[2]

    I don’t need to claim that real medicine has a perfect track record. I only claim that it has any track record to speak of, which is a point of distinction between the two.

    If you want a doctor who will tell you to eat leafy greens and do some yoga, that’s fine. It’s probably good advice. But you also want a doctor who will make the right decisions when it is impossible for you to know what the right decision is. You want a doctor who makes decisions based on reliable decision-making procedures. Much like a magic 8 ball, naturopathy is not a reliable decision-making procedure even if it sometimes generates the right answer. For all that contemporary science cannot guarantee, patients at least have the moral right not be misled by people who ought to know better.

61. The first thing that happened when my mom went to a naturopath was she took blood samples and actually looked at what nutrients she was missing and food sensitivities.

    Also, it’s great to see a good discussion about HAES. I have found it can seem a bit extreme and push away people who want to change their bodies. However, I like the point that even if you want to change your body, you don’t have to hate it as it is currently. You could just prefer more muscle if it’s possible, for example. A study recently studied the behaviour of people influenced by the HAES movement and found they are healthier than people who hate their bodies and simply want to lose weight.

62. Shoshie, this is great. I have a ton of food and body issues myself, and the hardest part is that they are so bound up with a history of undereating and overexercising – so the second I start exercising, I find that it triggers a pattern of starvation. These habits have been ingrained for over a decade now, and it keeps me from exercising the way that I would like to. Not only that, but I can’t have a scale, and I will even start starving myself if I notice that I’ve dropped a pants size, or something. It really sucks. I have a long way to go with these things. I’m glad someone is talking so openly about what it’s like.

    Also, thanks to whoever posted the glycemic index site, it’s really cool!

63. And last I checked, allopathic doctors haven’t been perfect with their advice either.

    That’s a bit like saying ‘physicists have occasionally been wrong with their theories, so let’s go back to consulting goat entrails to figure out how the world works.’ Allopathy is another word for ‘stuff that is scientifically shown to work.’

    Not all naturopathic doctors endorse homeopathy.

    Well, everyone who goes to Bastyr has to take at least three courses in homeopathy, so it’s pretty much a quack-factory. Even if they don’t personally endorse it, this would be kinda like an astronomy school making everyone take three courses in geocentrism.

    They were strictly focused on making sure that my vitamin levels were in check

    The focus on vitamins is highly indictative of quackery.

    http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Naturopathy/naturopathy.html

64. It’s also a good reminder that Health at Every Size is truly a weight-neutral approach – sometimes people do lose weight as a side-effect when they are doing what is right by their body (a lot of the time not, but it does happen on occasion, usually when other physical conditions are in play.)

    Ok, but this still implies weight-loss is not a rational/acceptable personal goal. I mean, when my father hit middle age, he gained ten or so pounds and a bit of a belly; he felt slower, and less comfortable in his own skin. He started watching what he ate more and running every morning, and lost most of the weight, and felt happier! Obviously it won’t be this easy for everyone- I’m emphatically not pushing weight loss for othr people- but I don’t think it’s correct to say people are unhealthy/fatphobic/betraying themselves if they decide they’d like their body more if it was lighter, any more than if it had a tattoo or a different hair color.

    I get that this is super fraught territory with tons of toxic cultural messages surrounding it, but because having a fat body actually feels different from having a not-fat body (whatever you define those things as), I don’t think its unreasonable to say “I prefer the second feeling to the first, and since I know from experience I can safely influence which type of body I have, I’m going to devote some time and energy towards doing so.”

65. but I don’t think it’s correct to say people are unhealthy/fatphobic/betraying themselves if they decide they’d like their body more if it was lighter, any more than if it had a tattoo or a different hair color.

    Here is the difference, I think. Most people have a weight range that is “best” for them. It’s generally the range at which the person is eating healthfully and getting moderate physical activity at least a few times a week. If you maintain a generally healthy lifestyle, your body will gravitate towards its healthy weight – which may or may not be the “best” society says or even what the person agrees with. This is what HAES supports.

    Our society has linked weight to health so strongly that it is very hard (in many cases, impossible) to discuss health without discussing weight. But that uncoupling is essential to actually talking about health in a decent way. So, let me get back to your question – so what if somebody wants to lose weight – not for any defined health reason, just because? Well, to me, the problem with it isn’t the individual, its the culture. Weight change, in this culture, is a deeply public, political and cultural act – whether the individual wants it to be or not. After my pregnancy, I lost most of my bulk and reverted to a pretty (by most standards, anyway), thin woman. Despite the fact that this body wasn’t really what I wanted and I felt outside of myself, I received more compliments then than any other time in my life for being so thin. When I went back to the gym, I was commended for trying to “lose the baby weight.” (They had no clue I was trying to gain!) The point I’m making here is that, ideally, you would be 100% correct – a conscious choice to lose (or gain) weight would mean little to nothing. However, the current society won’t let it be so – and weight loss is celebrated and deliberate/unintentional weight gain is derided. I personally find HAES hard to follow – not because I disagree with it, but because as an athlete, it’s not really designed for me. But HAES recognizes that right now, those people are aren’t losing weight are the subversive and counter-culture people who need the most support – not those who choose to lose weight (since society already backs them up).

    So I suppose in closing, that’s my point – that HAES, at least right now, isn’t really geared towards people who intentionally choose weight loss. HAES supports those who choose to try being healthy without any weight loss goal, since they are the ones who, right now, are running counter to society’s overriding message. Ideally, if there is a cultural shift, HAES may become obsolete, because the choice to shape one’s own body in any way would be a personal decision. But right now it’s not, so that’s why HAES exists in the form it does.

66. So I suppose in closing, that’s my point – that HAES, at least right now, isn’t really geared towards people who intentionally choose weight loss.

    The point I’m making here is that, ideally, you would be 100% correct – a conscious choice to lose (or gain) weight would mean little to nothing. However, the current society won’t let it be so – and weight loss is celebrated and deliberate/unintentional weight gain is derided.

    I pretty much agree with everything you wrote, but I think it’s still important to point out how problematic it is when HAES-supporters speak as if anyone who choses to try to lose weight is doing something terribly wrong.

67. Regarding weight loss and a HAES approach– I feel like it’s really similar to the comparison made earlier between feminism and heels. There’s a real sense of “I choose my choice” in the comments here, and I think it’s really important to remember that choices are not free from criticism. If someone wants to lose weight, I think it’s important for them to consider *why* the weight is so important. And how they will respond if the weight doesn’t come off or if it requires dangerous behaviors to come off or how they will fell/respond if they regain the weight.

    Now, if someone doesn’t do that, it doesn’t mean that they’re a bad person or evil or whatnot, just as it’s not bad or evil to choose to wear heels. One insidious part of fatphobia is that it makes people feel like they have no choice but to lose weight. It’s given as a cure-all, and many people don’t have the resources to do their own research or the ability to change doctors. Furthermore, there are serious social repercussions for not being at a socially acceptable weight. It is often hard living in my body, and the hardest part isn’t the actual fat, but the way that people respond to it. It’s having friends laugh about those disgusting morbidly obese people, while they don’t know that you fall into that category on the all-knowing BMI chart. It’s being one of the fatter people at a conference and having every other US speaker mention the “obesity epidemic.” And feeling like everyone is staring at you. It seeing people wince when they realize that they’re sitting next to you on an airplane. It’s not finding clothes that fit your body and then listening to people talk about those poor graduate students who are so socially awkward that they don’t even know how to wear clothes that fit. My reaction to all of the above is usually “fuck that noise,” but, honestly, it really hurts sometimes. So I see why someone would want to lose weight, I really do. I think that weight-loss dieting is dangerous an ineffective, but I understand why people would hold out hope for it.

    To those of you who think that I’m endorsing a pro-weight loss stance in this essay, you are completely wrong. I’m endorsing a weight-loss neutral stance. Some behaviors may lead to weight loss, and that’s fine. Some may lead to weight gain, and that’s fine. The important thing (if health is your priority, which there is no obligation for it to be) is that those actions lead to that person being healthier, whatever that means to that individual.

    Regarding naturopathy, the medical professionals I spoke with did more than recommend that I “eat leafy greens and do some yoga.” And asking about vitamins and minerals is important if you a) live in the PNW and have vitamin D deficiency. And b) have anemia. None of them mentioned homeopathy. I won’t deny that there are naturopaths who fall into quackery, but all of the ones I spoke with were very reasonable, and my friend even pointed me to some literature that I could read myself (remember, strong science background here). I’m not saying that all medical doctors are evil, nor am I saying that all naturopaths are awesome. I’m saying that bodies are complicated and sometimes medicine doesn’t have good answers yet. And medicine is incredibly resistant to change, even when the science says that it should.

    That’s really all the discussion I want on this topic. The focus of this post is dealing with fat gain/loss and a HAES approach. Any other comments regarding the benefits/problems with a naturopathic approach are not going to be approved.

68. Heh, if anyone is ever railing against the moderation on this blog and all, like, “I bet it’s the posts that disagree with the blogger that get thrown into mod!” then you should know that my comment on my own post got thrown into mod. Weird.

69. I think it’s still important to point out how problematic it is when HAES-supporters speak as if anyone who choses to try to lose weight is doing something terribly wrong.

    It’s wrong, to me, because taking such a strong stance leaves no room to wiggle. Like I said, athletes often make conscious choices to shape their bodies in a certain way – ways that sometimes include weight loss. However, honestly, I’ve never met a HAES supporter who took the view that all weigh loss is evil. They WILL, however, try to demand critical examination of the motives and logic behind the decision. For example, you said your father gained 10 pounds and wanted to lose them because they slowed him down. A HAES supporter may say, “Well, why was his immediate solution weight loss?” Was it possible that his eating habits changed? Was it possible that this weight gain is simply a result of a changing body chemistry and that a dietary change could have helped this? Is there a hormonal issue? Those are the questions that a HAES supporter may ask. Those aren’t attacks – those are questions that go after the dominant paradigm of thinking. We need to be extremely careful to not confuse a demand for critical examination with an attack. I’m not saying you are confusing them at all. But I do think the goal is noble that HAES has, which is mainly breaking the link between size and health.

70. Regarding weight loss and a HAES approach– I feel like it’s really similar to the comparison made earlier between feminism and heels. There’s a real sense of “I choose my choice” in the comments here, and I think it’s really important to remember that choices are not free from criticism. If someone wants to lose weight, I think it’s important for them to consider *why* the weight is so important.

    Sure, and you won’t get any argument from me there. But, to use my own lived experience as an example, I feel more physically comfortable when my body is configured a certain way. That’s not a cultural or social message I’m absorbing, that’s literally not enjoying the feel of my body as much when it’s chubbier. And if someone wants to criticize the type of physical sensations in my own body that I find pleasant, they can go fuck themselves, because honestly, really?

    For example, you said your father gained 10 pounds and wanted to lose them because they slowed him down. A HAES supporter may say, “Well, why was his immediate solution weight loss?”

    But a just as easy respond is “well, why not?” For my father, losing weight was fairly easy, he didn’t mind the process, and was ultimately happier as a result. I get that in an area as toxic as weight-loss messaging, it’s important to examine motivations, but a motivation as simple as ‘I don’t enjoy the feeling of the way my body has changed- let’s see if I can change it back” is entirely valid.

71. Now, if someone doesn’t do that, it doesn’t mean that they’re a bad person or evil or whatnot, just as it’s not bad or evil to choose to wear heels. One insidious part of fatphobia is that it makes people feel like they have no choice but to lose weight. It’s given as a cure-all, and many people don’t have the resources to do their own research or the ability to change doctors. Furthermore, there are serious social repercussions for not being at a socially acceptable weight. It is often hard living in my body, and the hardest part isn’t the actual fat, but the way that people respond to it.

    Definitely not pushing back against any of this. I just want to point out that I have a lot of different priorities, health being only one of them, and I enjoy being a certain weight the same way I enjoy wearing certain clothes/shoes and having my apartment at a certain temperature. The reason I keep bringing this up isn’t to subtly attack the idea of HAES, which I basically support, but to respond to both a) people who are upset with HAESizers because of a perceived hostility to any attempt at weight loss and b) HAESizers who have said things that could be interpreted as being hostile to wanting to change your body for whatever reason.

72. I can so identify. When I was diagnosed celiac and went gluten free, I lost a bunch of weight, which I’ve never regained.

    One thing I’d say about having to ruthlessly monitor what you eat is there’s this up side: when I find something I know I can eat from a celiac standpoint, I feel like … I’m entitled to go to town on it. The store has a new brand of GF cookies? F it, I’m buying them even if it’s not like I went in thinking I wanted cookies especially.

73. I feel more physically comfortable when my body is configured a certain way. That’s not a cultural or social message I’m absorbing, that’s literally not enjoying the feel of my body as much when it’s chubbier.

    I don’t think anybody espousing HAES would argue that you do not have a right to feel comfortable in your own body. However, any HAES supporter will question what you said above – that no cultural or social message is responsible (at least in part) for that thinking. On some level, social and cultural messages impact absolutely everything. It can’t really be denied. We have all been reared in a culture that says fat bodies are disgusting, inconvienant and diseased. Nobody makes decisions about their weight and body type free from these influences. HAES is mainly geared towards recgonizing these influences and admitting that decisions that fall in line with the popular narrative do further that narrative, regardless of intent. Whether we like it or not, the choice to NOT lose weight (or at the very least, not try to do so) is a courageous act – and a political one. The choice to lose weight, regardless of motivation, is a choice that is sanctioned by a fatphobic society. This does not mean that every person who chooses to lose weight is fatphobic – but that their actions are fatphobic-approved. HAES pushes a worldview in which fatphobia is eliminated – and yes, part of doing that is eliminating the pressure on fat people to be thin – thus normalizing their bodies.

    Shosie pointed out that HAES is a weight-neutral view. So, it doesn’t really care whether you lose or gain. However, it does care deeply about attitudes and how actions play into those attitudes. To me, your father’s case seems indicative. You say, “well, it was easy for him, so why not?” From a HAES standpoint, I suppose the response would be “what did he do to lose weight? Take up exercise? Eat more healthfully? He had to do something to effect the weight loss.” And here’s my question – whatever he did, assuming it was healthy in nature, why was THAT not the valued goal in and of itself? Exercising is a admirabled goal! Eating healthfully is an admirable goal in and of itself. Why did the weight loss need to be the motivation to do those things? That is what HAES is really about attacking – the idea that good behaviors and habits are valuable insofar only because they make you thin (which is a lie).

    Overall, no, I don’t think there is anything wrong with saying “I like to look/feel this way.” I hated being thin without muscle mass – because I felt like I couldn’t do the sports I liked before. I suppose to me it comes down to a debate about function vs. aesthetics. Function-based weight change fits in pretty well with HAES, to me. It’s the aesthetic arguments that get tricky, because of the external influences.

74. However, any HAES supporter will question what you said above – that no cultural or social message is responsible (at least in part) for that thinking.

    Feeling physically uncomfortable isn’t a type of thinking or belief, it’s a physical sensation. I really question whether a fatphobic society could change the way having fat literally feels on my body.

    The choice to lose weight, regardless of motivation, is a choice that is sanctioned by a fatphobic society.

    In the same way my choice to date people of the opposite gender is sanctioned by a homophobic society, sure. Some of the older people in my extended family are probably happy I’m currently dating someone of the same race I am, which I wasn’t doing in my previous relationship. The fact their racial prejudices support my choice doesn’t really alter the validity of that choice.

    Why did the weight loss need to be the motivation to do those things?

    Because he felt physically more comfortable with less belly flab. Are you really saying that having a fatter body doesn’t feel differently than a thinner body? And if you’re not, then what’s your objection to the idea that some people might prefer one set of physical sensations over the other?

    Function-based weight change fits in pretty well with HAES, to me. It’s the aesthetic arguments that get tricky, because of the external influences.

    Feeling physically comfortable is a valuable function.

75. I’m not questioning whether fat can be a physically uncomfortable thing. I’ve known people with the discomfort. I made a point to reduce my legs size because the fat was rubbing and causing me some issues with my skin. Like I said, a functional reason is perfectly valid under HAES. However, I’m not sure how widespread it is. Given that around 2/3 of the American population is overweight, it suprises me that the physical discomfort of fat is not more of a public health issue. Generally, more people report actual pain after losing weight and dealing with excess skin.

    I’m reading you as saying that the extra fat was actual pain. However, that word “feeling” is more ambigious – and something a HAES viewpoint would question. Like I said, the argument that one can make any weight-based decision free of cultural and societal influences isn’t a very strong argument, because those influences are so pervasive. So you say you feel better without the weight. That is totally fine. But again, from the HAES viewpoint, can it be questioned whether the good feelings originated from better nutrition, better exercise, or aesthetic pleasure? That is what HAES is about trying to figure out. Many overweight people feel much better after taking up a better diet – like Shosie. The weight loss is incidental. HAES’s whole point is not to make people who lose weight feel bad – but it is about critical examination, which only gets done when people can be critically questioned over and over again. If you experienced actually pain or discomfort from your body, that is a valid reason and nobody is questioning that (though it would be worthwhile to question whether the problem really lies in how we design the world to not accomodate larger bodies). What HAES questions is how the external influences play into the whole system of how we feel.

    Your analogy about dating, to me, isn’t quite working. Although society is heterosexist, if you are heterosexual, although your choice plays into the dominant paradigm, your orientation is not alterable. Your straight. You probably will not take up dating women solely to strike back at society. So while society openly prefers one orientation over the others, those playing into the dominant paradigm really don’t have the “option” to cease their behavior, as the behavior is not learned. On the other hand, a person can pursue good health and fitness without any intent to lose weight. Consciouslly pursing weight loss is a voluntary goal.

76. i think it is very important to make the distinction, when talking about diet and exercise, between having a lighter body and having a less-fat body.

    it’s great that when your father took up running and changed his eating habits, he felt better. i can relate to that – i feel better when i eat well and get my workouts and yoga. that doesn’t always mean that the number on the scale changes – even though in your father’s case it did. insert usual bromides about muscle weighing more than fat yadda yadda.

    here’s my alternate anecdote: i have a good friend who lives in another part of the country, that i see about every 3-4 months or so. i saw her at a conference last fall and she told me that she was seeing a doctor and a nutritionist and undertaking an exercise regimen because she wasn’t happy with her body – she wanted to lose weight.

    i saw her again in the spring and it was clear to me that her body had changed significantly in the intervening months – she was more slender and toned and her face had lost a lot of, well, fat. i think it was really easy for me to see the marked change because of the time interval – for her to look in the mirror every day would result in only seeing a gradual shift, which may not have been noticeable.

    anyway, i told her that it was clear that her change in diet and exercise had achieved results, and she responded – in a sad and frustrated voice – that she HADN’T seen any results because she had not lost one single pound.

    this is what HAES is all about, to my mind. stop looking at the number on the scale and start focusing on how you feel. whether or not the number changes is immaterial. and, if you care about altering the fatphobic condition of our society, don’t place an emphasis on the smaller scale number if you do happen to be one of the people for whom diet and exercise result in weight loss.

    there’s nothing wrong – and in fact it is good – to change things about your habits that result in your feeling better. but let’s make it NOT be about numbers, okay? cuz when you do, your feeding into the mindset that makes my friend C feel sad and frustrated because she (mistakenly) believes that she hasn’t managed to change her body at all with all the hard work she has done.

77. insert usual bromides about muscle weighing more than fat yadda yadda

    Nooooo…. argh…. pet peeve….

    Muscle does not weigh more than fat.

    Muscle is more dense than fat, so if you have equal volumes of fat and muscle, the volume of muscle will weigh more. Because it is more dense.

    Conversely, 1lb of muscle will take up much less space (volume) than 1lb of fat.

78. Nooooo…. argh…. pet peeve…. Muscle does not weigh more than fat. Muscle is more dense than fat, so if you have equal volumes of fat and muscle, the volume of muscle will weigh more. Because it is more dense. Conversely, 1lb of muscle will take up much less space (volume) than 1lb of fat.

    …ok, I guess. But I think most people understand instinctively what it means when you say, for example, ‘lead is heavier than feathers.’

79. Ok, but this still implies weight-loss is not a rational/acceptable personal goal.

    Based on my experience and my understanding of the science, I don’t believe that weight loss is a productive goal for the average person. However, I understand why people do it, and I affirm people’s right to choose whatever they choose to do with their bodies.

    My opinion on weight loss, however, remains firmly in place. I think it is risky and ineffectual for most people. Since I am not making your dad’s, or anyone’s, decisions for them, I’m entitled to that opinion, and I certainly don’t look down on people who don’t share it.

    A lot of the points that inform my pinion can be read in this paper, for those who are curious – http://www.nutritionj.com/content/pdf/1475-2891-10-9.pdf

80. I don’t believe that weight loss is a productive goal for the average person.

    Define productive, please.

81. Define productive, please.

    From the OED:

    productive, adj.

    Having the quality of producing something, typically through effort or work; that produces, esp. some significant amount or result; creative, generative.

    I believe that is the correct sense.

82. Similarly, I am occasionally frustrated by what feels like anti-science attacks from some of the HAES crowd; there are some medical facts about fatness that may appear to clash with the ideology. But what I think really drives this is years or decades of having people say “science proves your body is bad, you horrible fatty,’ as so criticizing a HAES statement with a statistic about weight and longevity can feel a lot like a continuation of that attack.

    I certainly understand where they’re coming from, but I have to second your annoyance at some of the anti-rational rhetoric. It’s easy to have a movement that’s all about the feels, but it’s not helpful to have a movement that’s all about the feels; you need some “is” to go with that “feels.” And that’s where science and, yes, even the evil BMI chart, comes in. Measurement without judgement would be ideal.

83. FWIW, I basically practice HAES without particularly liking the movement’s approach to things like medical science. Yes, sometimes medicine is wrong, but it’s not therefore always wrong. Even when it says alarming things.

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85. From the OED: productive, adj. Having the quality of producing something, typically through effort or work; that produces, esp. some significant amount or result; creative, generative. I believe that is the correct sense.

    Oh, ok. So you’re arguing that attempting weight loss will produce absolutely no effects, whether good or ill, for the average person. Well, that certainly doesn’t seem at all true (or even in line with HAES rhetoric)…

    Or maybe when you said ‘productive’ you meant something more nuanced than just the dictionary definition, but couldn’t resist the urge to be snarky?

    Bagelsan- unfortunately, you’ve identified my single greatest problem with a whole spectrum of social justice movements, that is, the privileging of ideology over reality. Sometimes scientific realities are inconvenient, and there’s a discouraging tendancy among a lot of social justice warriors to accuse any scientific study which produces these inconvenient results of being inherently oppressive.

86. I love low carb eating. I’m terrified of type-2 diabetes (a metabolic disorder that some research says is caused by our modern refined-carb diets).

    I can’t speak for specific research, but there’s no particular reason why it would be true.

    What is true is this: once your blood sugar control system goes wonky, the typical modern US diet is *really* bad for you because it is full of refined carbs which quickly turn to sugar in your blood, and overwhelm the already-wonky system.

    But unless/until something makes your sugar control go wonky, excess sugars/starches/refined carbs should turn to fat. Fat, in itself, is not bad, unless it’s visceral fat.

87. @ amblingalong

    You might notice that I am not Michelle, though she is so fabulous I can’t say I’m really insulted.

    Your question seemed like you haven’t even bothered to read the things she linked though or else you might have figured out for yourself what she meant, so it seemed to warrant a similarly shallow reply. *shrug*

88. amblingalong- I think the general HAES consensus, though I by no means speak for the movement, is that weight loss doesn’t tend to be permanent and can carry significant risk. This is backed up by the current scientific literature. There are heightened mortality risks from weight cycling, and when the vast majority of people who lose weight just gain it back, it seems like a pursuit that is ineffective at best and outright dangerous at worst. I certainly won’t deny that temporary weight loss is fairly easy to achieve. I’ve lost over a hundred pounds over my adult life. But studies show that it’s almost never maintained. Note that almost never != never, but I think those tend to be the most extreme cases. The person who was drinking two liters of Coke a day and switched to water. The person who had Celiac’s and stopped eating bread (though I think more common physiological response is for someone with Celiac’s to *gain weight* after diagnosis).

89. You might notice that I am not Michelle, though she is so fabulous I can’t say I’m really insulted.

    Indeed I didn’t.

    Your question seemed like you haven’t even bothered to read the things she linked though or else you might have figured out for yourself what she meant, so it seemed to warrant a similarly shallow reply. *shrug*

    …huh? I read the link and found it informative, but I think there’s still a question of what ‘productive’ actually means. Is there a utilitarian implication (it’s unlikely to produce more happiness), physical (it’s unlikely to produce successful weight loss), or ethical (just an immoral goal to have, period)?

    Another question (and these really are questions, not snarky attempts to make a point); the fat nutritionist’s theories seem largely based on set-point theory, i.e. that people’s bodies have a weight which is healthy for that particular body, but this weight varies widely between people. As a result, people can be overweight or underweight, but what this means is different for different people.

    I have a tough time reconciling this theory with a world in which Americans weigh way more than citizens of most other countries, and where they also weigh way more than they have historically. Since genetics don’t drift that fast (not even close to that fast), this suggests one of two things:

    1) Most of the rest of the world, plus most historical peoples (including Americans) are/were under their set-point
    2) Most fat Americans are over their set-point, and are in fact unhealthily overweight

    1) seems implausible, but 2) puts us right back to fat = unhealthy. So set-point theory to me seems to have a problem, there. I’d definitely be interested in hearing what you think.

90. But studies show that it’s almost never maintained.

    I agreed with everything in your post, except this, which needs qualification; studies show that drasticweight loss is almost never maintained. People who build up fat over long periods of time and then attempt to significantly change their body are fighting against a powerful set of biological imperatives which, essentially, tell their body it is starving. People who gain weight and soon after make lifestyle changes (running more often, drinking less soda- not dieting) are typically pretty succesful at losing some weight and maintain that loss- because, in fact, they’re returning their body to the equilibrium it’s used to.

91. @amblingalong – sorry, but your last couple of messages have just shown that you’re in fact against fat-acceptance, so please don’t continue to say that you’re not and that you’re “just more comfortable” at a certain weight–no societal pressure, y’know–etc.

    Can there not ever be a thread on fat issues without the But It’s Unhealtheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!11!!!!!!!!!!! types showing up to lecture all the lazy, stupid fatties?

92. Can there not ever be a thread on fat issues without the But It’s Unhealtheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!11!!!!!!!!!!! types showing up to lecture all the lazy, stupid fatties?

    Can there be a thread where “lazy, stupid fatties” doesn’t get dragged out as a shut-up tactic? No one here is talking about laziness or stupidity, we’re talking biological mechanisms.

93. @amblingalong – sorry, but your last couple of messages have just shown that you’re in fact against fat-acceptance, so please don’t continue to say that you’re not and that you’re “just more comfortable” at a certain weight–no societal pressure, y’know–etc.

    Oh, for goodness’ sake. Offering some questions about set-point theory is not anti-fat, because set-point theory is actually a scientific theory (it’s not about what should be, but what, biologically speaking, is true). Note that they were questions, not attacks, and I offered them to someone who is eminently qualified to speak to them, in the hopes of expanding my knowledge. This is what people who care about understanding things do. I understand that for you this may be a foreign concept.

    Furthermore, offering qualifications to a statement which is broadly true (attempting to undergo weight loss is typically unsuccesful) but has some caveats (this is less true the closer the attempt at weight loss is to the original weight gain) while agreeing with the general thesis (pushing weight loss to fat people is a bad thing to do) is not anti-fat.

    So basically what it comes down to is that I’m insufficiently doctrinaire for you- that is, I basically agree with HAES, and I’m pro-fat-acceptance, but I don’t mindlessly accept every single pro-fat idea out there- so I actually hate fat people. This is like if I said “Hey, did you know gaining weight actually makes your IQ go up?” and you said “there’s really no scientific evidence for that” and I responded “wow, you’re fatphobic!”

    Can there not ever be a thread on fat issues without the But It’s Unhealtheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!11!!!!!!!!!!! types showing up to lecture all the lazy, stupid fatties?

    Show me the quote where I did this, please.

    But you won’t, because you’re actually just a troll, aren’t you? I mean, you just put disgustingly bigoted words in my mouth that I actually never said. So in fact, scratch everything I said- go fuck yourself, asshole.

94. But HAES recognizes that right now, those people are aren’t losing weight are the subversive and counter-culture people who need the most support – not those who choose to lose weight (since society already backs them up).

    This.

    Why are people in this HAES discusion trying to get validation that it is ok for them to try to lose weight? Everywhere else in the WHOLE DAMN WORLD will validate this viewpoint! You are not the oppressed and misunderstood ones.

95. @amblingalong – sorry, but your last couple of messages have just shown that you’re in fact against fat-acceptance

    That kind of raises the question of what fat-acceptance really is, doesn’t it? Acceptance of fat people, or acceptance of your own fat?

96. That kind of raises the question of what fat-acceptance really is, doesn’t it? Acceptance of fat people, or acceptance of your own fat?

    Yes. When I first heard of fat acceptance, I was in love with it, primarily the social justice aspects of it. But… I was actively trying to lose weight at the time. I am no longer doing that, but partially (perhaps primarily) because intentional weight loss doesn’t work for me. Fat acceptance has helped me to understand that this doesn’t mean that my life is doomed.

    So, to me, fat acceptance is primarily about accepting fat people as full human beings deserving of full rights and respect in society, and not expecting or pressuring fat people to try to lose weight. But to me, fat acceptance is also about accepting my own fat and learning to live comfortably- emotionally and physically- in my fat body.

97. Crys T- I really don’t think that’s fair to amblingalong, who’s been clearly trying to discuss and understand these issues in good faith. Fatphobia’s really easy to internalize, and I think that that tends to be responsible, at least in part, for people liking their bodies better with less body fat. Sort of like the number of women who prefer the feel of their legs while shaven. You might genuinely enjoy having smoother legs, but that doesn’t mean that this enjoyment isn’t influenced by cultural messages that women are supposed to have hairless legs.

    Emolee- I think a lot of people go through that. I found out about fat acceptance in the middle of my last diet. I figured that other people could be fat and healthy, but I sure couldn’t. Or that those people were just deluding themselves.

    amblingalong- I’m sorry that I originally didn’t make that qualification. You are correct in that small amount of weight change, usually as a side effect from some sustainable behavioral change, can be sustained. My experience has been with attempts at serious weight loss (even at my lightest, I was told that I needed to lose ~50 more lbs to be “normal”), and so that’s where my focus has been. I’m sorry that I didn’t clarify.

98. I’m sorry that I originally didn’t make that qualification. You are correct in that small amount of weight change, usually as a side effect from some sustainable behavioral change, can be sustained. My experience has been with attempts at serious weight loss (even at my lightest, I was told that I needed to lose ~50 more lbs to be “normal”), and so that’s where my focus has been. I’m sorry that I didn’t clarify.

    Please don’t feel the need to apologize- I added it as a note I found interesting, not a challenge. Like I said, I basically agree with everything you wrote in your post #89, and I’m sorry if I didn’t make that clear.

99. I think a lot of people go through that. I found out about fat acceptance in the middle of my last diet. I figured that other people could be fat and healthy, but I sure couldn’t. Or that those people were just deluding themselves.

    Even up to a few months ago, I was writing about fat acceptance while logging, counting and actively trying to lose weight. Because HEALTH. I spent four-plus years on a weight loss plan, which was not unsuccessful, but went off when I became disillusioned with said large-corporation-who-shall-remain-nameless and their mission to make more money off me by rolling out.

    I also got SICK of constantly having to THINK about every goddamn morsel that went in my mouth. I felt like it would be much kinder to myself just to make sure that what I was eating was good, but still enjoyable.

    I’ve since run out of fucks to give about losing any additional weight, and trying to concentrate more on just making sure I’m getting the occasional fruits and veggies in, exercising somewhat regularly and making sure my pants just fit consistently. If I feel shitty and sluggish and bloaty, then that’s usually a good indicator that I need to make some changes, food wise.

100. *by rolling out new programs that constantly rendered old program materials obsolete.

101. Can there not ever be a thread on fat issues without the But It’s Unhealtheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!11!!!!!!!!!!! types showing up to lecture all the lazy, stupid fatties?

     At the same time, can there not ever be a thread on fat issues without the You’re Going To Gain It All Back HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!11!!!!!! HAES types showing up to try to drag down people who are making an effort to improve their lives?

102. I’m very comfortable with my body, have been for most of my 30s. Since I started training for various half (and especially since training for my first full) marathons, I’ve had to start keeping a mental calorie count . Literally running on empty, not good, have to make sure I have enough fuel. But doing the counting again, even very informally, brought in all kinds of horrible exercise bulimia thought processes. I’m tracking for the opposite reason then I used to, eating enough to exercise, not exercising enough to negate eating, but it’s still there. My extra favorite new mental process is when I look in the mirror and simultaneously think, “I’m too fat” and “I’m too scrawny”. The internalization is deep, have accepted that it will never go away. All I can do is laugh to myself, which keeps it at the unbidden thought level, helps with blocking taking the voice seriously.

103. If people have to think an “I’m too…” thought, let it be “I’m too sexy for my shirt!” and then wink at the mirror. ;D

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106. Chava:

     Lululemon no longer carries my size. (Oh, first world problems. But hopefully relevant to the general thrust of the OP).

     Lululemon has started producing products with Ayn Rand quotes on them – Who is John Galt, if my memory serves – so you’re better off with another brand anyway. [/ot]

107. Nooooo…. argh…. pet peeve….

     Muscle does not weigh more than fat.

     Muscle is more dense than fat, so if you have equal volumes of fat and muscle, the volume of muscle will weigh more. Because it is more dense.

     Conversely, 1lb of muscle will take up much less space (volume) than 1lb of fat.

     True. Muscle is more dense than fat. How does this not mean “muscle weighs more than fat” as most humans understand the expression?

     A pound of feathers and a pound of concrete weigh the same amount. For the same volume of material, however, the concrete has greater density, therefore it has more mass, which means, given the same gravitational force of the earth acting upon it, it weighs more.

     (Pet peeve: Splitting of hairs that don’t need splitting because they serve the purpose of communication quite well when left whole).

108. Anyway. On the subject of the post itself, great job, Shoshie.

     On the subject of HAES, my understanding of the expression is *encouraging people to care for themselves and focus on their health (if they wish) WITHOUT REGARDING the number on the scale or the number on the clothing label*, because merely doing different kinds of voodoo to make that number go down is like covering a zit with makeup and insisting that’s cured it. Actually, if you do happen to be fat and healthy, dieting is like cutting off your thumb so it fits in a four-fingered glove because everyone just knows that thumbs are unhealthy. Like everyone just knew that disease was caused by an imbalance of humours in the blood.

     Eating different foods to help one feel better is practicing HAES. So is going to the doctor when you feel bad and insisting that they figure out what’s actually wrong with you instead of saying, “You’ll be cured of your ailments if you reduce that number on the scale, fatty, pay the receptionist on your way out.”

109. I feel more physically comfortable when my body is configured a certain way. That’s not a cultural or social message I’m absorbing, that’s literally not enjoying the feel of my body as much when it’s chubbier. And if someone wants to criticize the type of physical sensations in my own body that I find pleasant, they can go fuck themselves, because honestly, really?

     Actually, it might well be partly a cultural or social message. You absolutely do get to decide how you want your body to feel, but don’t discount the sneakiness of social messages at changing how people interpret sensations. For instance, how do you think some people get all upset and confused at sexual feelings? Because they’ve absorbed a message that something most think is good is really bad. Why couldn’t a soft, pillowy, voluptuous body get reframed as a disgusting, unhealthy mess in someone’s head?

110. At the same time, can there not ever be a thread on fat issues without the You’re Going To Gain It All Back HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!11!!!!!! HAES types showing up to try to drag down people who are making an effort to improve their lives?

     Oh, what baloney. There is no damned “HAHAHAHAHAHA” about the idea of people gaining weight back. Nobody’s trying to drag anyone down. Quite the contrary–since research indicates ALMOST NOBODY has learned the magic spell required to keep the weight off, the focus of those who endorse HAES is on encouraging people NOT TO HATE OR BLAME THEMSELVES if it comes back, and on encouraging them to focus on what CAN be changed and maintained, namely actual health, instead of the thing that MIGHT but probably WON’T stay changed (the number on the pants label).

     It’s like using a pencil to write a message instead of holding the pencil in a pair of tongs–it works better when the goal is approached directly instead of indirectly.

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