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Don’t Just Blame the Victim; Prosecute Her

A judge files a false rape report against teen girl because she wasn’t traumatized enough to be credible in her testimony against her attackers.

After a day-and-a-half trial, Municipal Judge Peter A. Ackerman on Friday convicted the woman of filing a false police report, a class-C misdemeanor. Ackerman explained his decision, saying there were many inconsistencies in the stories of the four, but that he found the young men to be more credible. He also said he relied on the testimony of a Beaverton police detective and the woman’s friends who said she did not act traumatized in the days following the incident.

Kevin Hayden of The American Street, who was at the trial last week, has more on the story:

It was especially interesting that the prosecutor kept referring to the three men involved as ‘boys’, when they were fully grown men. The woman was 17.

The judge found inconsistencies in all of the stories, thus establishing reasonable doubt in every story. Yet he convicted the victim. ‘Boys’ will be ‘boys’.

The young woman’s friends were a classmate at high school and her mother. The mother a) has always been seen with an alcoholic beverage or high on prescription pills by all who know her, b) provided the 17-year old with the alcohol she’d had that evening, which she stole from the store she cashiers at and c) was awaiting her boyfriend’s return to her home within two months of the rape. That boyfriend was in prison for molesting his own daughter. That’s hardly a credible witness with any sympathy for victims of sexual assault. But none of this could be introduced into evidence. Only the 17 year old’s sexual history could be exposed.

Additionally, the two ‘friends’ were the ones who convinced the 17 year old that she should report it to the police. So if the young woman is guilty, the instigating accessories to her ‘crime’ are considered credible experts about how a rape victim should act.

This is particularly disappointing for him since he has known the girl since she was an infant.


Shakespeare’s Sister (HT) discusses false rape reporting and the notion that there is a “right” way to act after rape. There isn’t much for me to say because she and Kevin have said it all, but I, after I was raped, was not believed either. After all, I turned around from the incident, cleaned up the blood, and went back about my family vacation like nothing had happened because I thought I had done something wrong and didn’t want my parents to know. I was barely thirteen. Nevermind the promiscuity and drug addiction that followed, by god, I wasn’t traumatized and therefore was not raped.

I have a particular therapist to thank for convincing my support system not to trust me, the unqualified piece of shit. Shame, shame on this judge.


94 thoughts on Don’t Just Blame the Victim; Prosecute Her

  1. Ouch. I am sorry to hear your story, although glad that you shared it. This is totally f*cking outrageous and this judge should be held to account.

  2. She didn’t seem traumatized? Are they aware that a lot of men, during or after battle (as in bullets flying) laugh hysterically? I have been given to understand that this is a fairly COMMON reaction. And what was it that Winston Churchill said about how ecstatic it makes you feel to survive an attempt on your life?

  3. Sadly, this sort of things happens far too often. I forget the url, but there is a web page out there of outrageous things judges have done/said concerning violent sex crimes.

    Worst yet, under current laws, it’s nearly impossible to get rid of idiots like this guy.

  4. Lauren, I’m so sorry. I didn’t know. So many tragic stories.

    This judge ought to be dragged from his car and beaten. A teenager had inconsistencies in her stories? Jesus. Teenagers have inconsistencies in their inner core of being. Maybe she wasn’t raped (hard to say) but unless there’s some profound reason to believe she was maliciously bringing a completely bogus charge just to get at some boy, it’s insane to charge her with a false police report.

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  6. After all, I turned around from the incident, cleaned up the blood, and went back about my family vacation like nothing had happened because I thought I had done something wrong and didn’t want my parents to know.

    This is all too familiar, right down to cleaning up the blood.

    I was 16 when I was raped by my 17-year-old boyfriend. When I finally did tell someone, the closest I got to justice was being locked in a room with him and told to “work out our differences.” By the end of it, I regretted having ever told anyone. He repeatedly assaulted me for three more years, during which time he raped at least one other woman that I know of. He was also not prosecuted for that rape – because she didn’t want to come forward knowing what I had experienced.

    Being found guilty of fraud on top of that experience is beyond contemplation.

  7. When I finally did tell someone, the closest I got to justice was being locked in a room with him and told to “work out our differences.”

    In that situation, “work out our differences” is a euphemism for cracking his skull open.

  8. While we’re sharing horrible stories relevant to this case (at least potentially).. I did quite the opposite… As a 13 year old, when asked by someone who had found the scene later (blood etc.), I denied that it was involuntary and stated that I had been drinking, that it meant nothing, and added that I had ‘my period’. Even though it meant looking like a reckless “slut” (this was over twenty some years ago), and even though the individual was really concerned for me. They did not believe a word I was saying, but I kept firm and I avoided that person like the plague and eventually, never saw them again.

    I lied to the one individual who was witness to evidence of the rape… And did so to avoid ever having to contend with it, ever, ever, ever (which of course, isn’t really possible). I loathed the possibility of having to tell the story to anyone, I feared punishment from my parents, etc., etc.. Evidently, I was pretty good at ‘not acting traumatized’ too. I had felt traumatized and was physically injured, but wanted to ensure no one found out about it – and no one did.

    I know that times have changed somewhat for gals (they are more informed, for one), but I understand completely why one would choose not to report such a scenerio. Add to it the potential for accusation that one is lying, of seeing the offender go free, of having your intimate life turned inside out for family and strangers alike… I can see why the stats reflect a high percent unreported and only the very rare case of false accusation.

    It is unfortunate, all the way around, because if victims don’t go hard and fast with their story, offenders keep offending. Not to mention the indv.psychological and sociological implications of ‘hiding’ such a (relatively) common, ugly experience…

    Thanx ladies, for the sharing. : )

    I think it’s important folks hear stuff like this and contextualize the issue, it makes a difference.. Or, I prefer to believe it does.

  9. Having just come out of the Laramie Project, I fully believe telling stories and such makes a difference.

    And it’s bad enough that we hear this kind of bullshit from defense teams, but from a judge? It’s rare that I feel this close to being in favour of a necktie party.

  10. I’m the father of two daughters, ages 5 & 2. I find myself simulatenously paralyzed with fear & shaking in anger as I read the stories of rape written here. The thought of my girls in any kind of pain scares me, and the image of them being raped or sexually attacked freezes my heart.

    Is there anything I do to help protect my daughters? Is there anything I can teach them? I’d appreciate hearing from the women who have shared thier stories what (if anything) they wished their parents had done both before and after the attack.

  11. Naturally at my blog, the assholes are sounding the alarm that it should be made so difficult for women to prosecute rapists that rape is basically legal. This they are saying in a thread where I talk about my experience being assaulted.

    Reading blogs on this issue and finding out how many women are victims is just gut-wrenching. Huge percentages of women are victims of rape because most rape is while techically illegal, pretty much legal in practice. (Like Shakes’ case.) I know lots and lots and lots of women who’ve been raped. I’m the only one I know who actually saw any kind of justice meted out–my attacker was given a fine and probation.

  12. Jeff, I wish my father had listened to me more carefully. He’s always treating me like a child who can’t protect herself against predatory men. But when I actually opened up and told him how I felt about being raped, he said, “Wow, I didn’t realize it was that big a deal for you.”

  13. David Thompson – what the hell is that bit of advice good for?

    Locked in a room with someone who violated you, is probably quite a bit bigger than you, and obviously has no problem with physically forcing you to do something…..
    Of course physically attacking him would seem a safe course of action.

    My reaction probably seems out of proportion, but I am sick and tired of the whole idea that women should just be more violent towards men and rape would go away. You know, carry a gun, castrate them, take “self-defense”.

    The guy’s actions are not the woman’s responsibility. And implying that being locked in a room alone with your rapist is your chance for vindication sounds damned insensitive.

  14. Jeff, my parents did what they could with the information that was given to them. Because this piece of shit therapist put it in their heads that my story was dubious, we have yet to address it directly.

    Beforehand, I wish there had been explicit talk about sex, what it is, what it means, and given the vocabulary to describe different kinds of sexual experiences. Because all I knew was that sex had occurred and sex was not for 13-year-olds, I hid what happened for two years. Afterward, I wish that shred of doubt had never been placed into the minds of my friends and family because I still, despite my knowledge and self-awareness, at times doubt my story too. That is probably the worst thing of it all — that I still sometimes suffer from flashbacks, triggers, and sudden fight or flight physiology and simultaneously question myself.

  15. In that situation, “work out our differences” is a euphemism for cracking his skull open.

    Psssh, and then getting arrested for aggravated assault or something.

  16. My reaction probably seems out of proportion, but I am sick and tired of the whole idea that women should just be more violent towards men and rape would go away. You know, carry a gun, castrate them, take “self-defense”.

    I think David is only guilty of thinking like a man. A man who is threatened will usually react with violence. We tend to me more violent and romanticize the idea of going down fighting. Personally, if I was locked in a room with someone who had raped me or someone I loved, only one person would be walking out of the room. Even if it required going to jail, in the short-term I would consider it a fair trade. Later when my brain kicked in I would probably regret it but at the time….

    I think too many men make the mistake of transfering their own reactions to women. Most women lack the physical strength to react the same way. Even when they are, women are not predisposed nor encouraged from a young age to react violently to a threat.

  17. Given everything else that has been said in this thread I regret posting an “argument”. I read the above and I felt sad, very sad. I also felt tremendous anger at the unfairness of life.

    I haven’t been around here long and I don’t know you as much as some other people, let alone people who know you in real life, but I sense you are all strong women. You’ve had bad experiences but you are still strong. That is important.

  18. Lauren, I’ve only begun reading here recently, and I am so sorry for your trauma. All of you others who have spoken up too, of course.

    I also worry constantly about my daughter (she’s almost 7) for the dangers that await her, and I can see myself being obsessively protective of her already. I’m fully prepared to see to it that she DOES learn self-defense (and soon) so she can protect herself.

    You know, carry a gun, castrate them, take “self-defense”.

    Carrying a gun and taking self-defense isn’t about “making rape go away,” but it is about protecting yourself. No rapist politely asks if he can rape you, he is inherently violent. You can’t discuss your way out of a violent attack, and if you aren’t prepared, you don’t stand a chance. Self-defense skills may not be a sure thing, but it can definitely improve your odds. And of course, as they say, guns are the great equalizer.

    Personally, if I was locked in a room with someone who had raped me or someone I loved, only one person would be walking out of the room. Even if it required going to jail, in the short-term I would consider it a fair trade.

    I don’t think that’s just a male response, Eric; I feel the same way, but I don’t have the physical strength to make sure only one walks out of the room. I’d do whatever it takes, and happily accept the consequences. IMHO, there’s plenty of moral justification for it. And if I didn’t have a child, I’d be packing heat all the time like I did years ago, since I physically can’t defend myself adequately with my bare hands. 😉

    The story of the girl in the story is f’n outrageous, especially considering the total lack of support (and worse, endangerment) from her own mother. The judge ought to be forced to listen to stories of rape survivors to get a f-cking clue and kicked off the bench, the mother ought to be charged with something for bad parenting (a child-molesting boyfriend? wtf?), but that still won’t undo the damage to that poor girl by the rapist and everyone else. Doubtless she won’t be able to trust anyone for a long time, if ever, if she doesn’t get a lot of help. I just don’t buy for a second that a teenage girl would make up a rape story and put herself through a trial and exposure of her own sexual history just for the hell of it–especially knowing how most victims are afraid to speak up. Evil bastards.

  19. My reaction probably seems out of proportion, but I am sick and tired of the whole idea that women should just be more violent towards men and rape would go away. You know, carry a gun, castrate them, take “self-defense”.

    What is the alternative, cburke? Should women just allow themselves to be violated and then cross their fingers in hopes the criminal injustice system will function properly?

    Rape is a violent crime. A woman shouldn’t feel any shame about answering her aggressor with violence. As far as I’m concerned, a rapist is “asking for it” when he decides to terrorize an innocent person. Both surviving a rape and using deadly force to stop an attacker can be emotionally traumatizing (contrary to what this judge believes). But which would you rather endure? Personally, I’d rather just go buy some replacement ammo…

    And implying that being locked in a room alone with your rapist is your chance for vindication sounds damned insensitive.

    Insensitive? Surely you jest. Either that, or your diction needs some work, bro.

    Using deadly force is definitely the best response to a rape-in-progress. Why? I’m glad you asked:

    1-No parole/probation for Mr. Rapist. His days of terrorizing women (and/or children) will end permanently as soon as the trigger is squeezed.

    2-Jacketed hollowpoints are less expensive than paying for rape counseling (and they’re MUCH more effective). Oh, did I already mention that?

    3-Setting a good example. As soon as other women see that you don’t have to put up with this bullshit, they’ll realize they have options. My preference is the 9mm. Because it’s such a popular caliber, it’s inexpensive to maintain and shoot. Some prefer a .40 or .45, which will also get the job done.

    4-The only good rapist is a dead rapist. I don’t believe in rehabilitation or early release for child molesters or rapists. These crimes scar victims for life and those convicted and released have a high rate of recidivism. Why fool with the red tape? Save the taxpayers some money and kill a pedophile today!

    5-And finally, it’s just plain fun. I love seeing assholes get what they have coming to them. It makes me feel warm and fuzzy all over. Guns don’t have to be a part of any of this. Hell, just kick him in the balls, and when he doubles over grab his hair and slam his head in the car door about six or seven times. Then see how enthusiastic he is about rape.

    Gosh, who could possibly argue against this? I guess only pacifists, career-minded victims, and…rapists, of course.

    Toodles.

  20. Is there anything I do to help protect my daughters? Is there anything I can teach them? I’d appreciate hearing from the women who have shared thier stories what (if anything) they wished their parents had done both before and after the attack.

    Jeff, this is going to be hard for you to hear – even if you lock your daughters away from the world, a rapist could still break into your house and assault them. There is little you can do to change just your daughters’ risk of being raped without addressing the whole rape entitlement culture of “whore asked for it” and “bitch deserved it” and “they all really want it anyway”.

    The best things parents can do for their daughters is to be open about sex, open about consent issues, and open about the fact that the rape culture does exist, and that if they are targeted by a rapist IT IS NOT THEIR FAULT, THEY DIDN’T DO ANYTHING WRONG.

    Pretending that women can actually do something magic to prevent it plays into the rape culture’s stance of always, always blaming the victim. If you try and teach your daughters that if they do The Right Things then they will be safe from rape, then if the day comes that they are assaulted, they WILL blame themselves. Or they will fail to support their sister/cousin/friend because they believe that any rape victim must have done something wrong to make herself a target.

    Oh, and don’t forget that parents need to teach their sons this stuff too.

  21. If a man is raped, the judges probably won’t say “Bcoz u were dressed sexily or drunk or asking for it.”

    If the law actually protect the victim (or survivor) & punish the rapist, there would be more confidence in reporting the crimes and less self-doubt if rape actually happened.

  22. “The best things parents can do for their daughters is to be open about sex, open about consent issues, and open about the fact that the rape culture does exist, and that if they are targeted by a rapist IT IS NOT THEIR FAULT, THEY DIDN’T DO ANYTHING WRONG.”

    This is absolutely the best advice.

    Females, as well as males, need to understand and believe that in ALL cases rape is a criminal act. There is no buts and if and if I didn’t’.

    What happened to this girl is a travesty. The judge should be castrated.

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  24. JeffL says:

    Is there anything I do to help protect my daughters? Is there anything I can teach them?

    Yes. Make sure they understand their inherent value, teach them to set their own boundries, see that they know there are bad people out there, and see that they learn to defend themselves if/when they encounter them.

    Amanda says:

    He’s always treating me like a child who can’t protect herself against predatory men.

    This demonstrates my point. Females are often expected to be weak, and to be vulnerable. But that need not be the case. It’s a dangerous world, and vulnerable people will get hurt in it. As a practical matter, teaching your child how to cope with being a victim is a poor substitute for teaching them how to avoid being a victim. That’s the knowledge you need to impart before it’s too late to be useful.

    With sympathy for those who have already been attacked…

  25. Erm, could everyone please be very careful how they use that email address anashi posted above? I imagine there’s a pretty low thresshold for harassing a judge, and I don’t want any other innocent people getting in trouble.

  26. Jeff, here is my two-bits…

    Whether you have sons or daughters, don’t avoid taking about sex and don’t treat issues of physical intimacy like they are taboo. What is not said, and how it is said, transfers a lot of meaning to that realm.

    I witnessed a coworker of mine chastise her four year old for entering the living room with no shirt on – because men were there. This is an extreme example but shows how protectiveness can ‘dirty’ the concept of body. Would this little girl tell her mother if she was inappropriately touched? I doubt it, she was in tears and felt ‘bad’ just for exposing her belly. I think that in the latter scenerio, she would be afraid that she ‘did something’ to warrent any negative attention.

    Talking to children about inappropriate behavior, whether their own or someone elses, is opportune just watching tv commercials, in many movies (even family films), and when they come home from school with playground stories. The root is always personal respect. Respecting ones self and insisting the same from others. Respecting other peoples wishes, characters and bodies. Lessons in respect apply to all sorts of scenerios and are not restricted to those surrounding sexuality. But the translation is direct.

    Also, positive tones, perspectives and reinforcements carry waaaay less baggage than the opposite. Negative inforcements (such as the little girl with her shirt off) completely change the meaning of the intended impact. Of course, providing examples through ones own behaviors and supporting open dialogue (trust) with our kids is essential. They need to know that you’ll ‘back em up’ in cases where they
    are not treated respectfully, just as much as they need to know that you won’t turn a blind eye if they treated someone else disrespectfully. In my opinion, this nurtures personal responsiblity.

    I believe that all of these above, and that which others here have suggested, apply to and are important for both genders in their development. And apply to both genders throughout their lives…

    I have a school aged son, and this is how I’ve gone about it. He is just about ten now, and now, it is he who comments on commercials and movies, events in the school yard. At present, he ‘gets’ it. So, I tend to think this might be what ‘good advice’ I can offer…

  27. Jeff, this is going to be hard for you to hear – even if you lock your daughters away from the world, a rapist could still break into your house and assault them. There is little you can do to change just your daughters’ risk of being raped without addressing the whole rape entitlement culture of “whore asked for it” and “bitch deserved it” and “they all really want it anyway”.

    Of course, locking them away from the world is a response to the idea that most rapes are perpetrated by strangers. The biggest danger they face is from men they know.

    I had a recent experience where I was alone in a room with a man who was going to rape me. We were in a hotel room — the idea was that we were going to have sex. However, I had laid out some explicit guidelines prior to going to the room, such as condom use, what I would and would not do, etc. And he had agreed to my conditions. But when we got to the room, he was too rough with me and became angry when I asked him why, when he had told me downstairs that he had condoms, he didn’t have any. When I told him I wasn’t going through with it because he’d lied to me, he tried to force me.

    Now, I’m a pretty big girl, and I put up a good fight, but I couldn’t have kept it up for long if he was going to get really violent with me. What saved me in the end was making threats to fuck with his career — he was an investment banker, and I knew where he worked and let him know that I would tell his boss if he raped me.

  28. Oh, and one more thing… If I had a little girl, I would have treated her to more than one martial arts camp. I have done so for my son, regardless, as his physical energy was really wild and he would get a little viscious when wrestling. But for girls, I think they don’t even get the wrestling experience! Maybe I’m out of touch on this one, but it seems that the physical play that teaches us about self defence, is usually only endeavored with or encouraged with boys..

    When they are little, they don’t necessarily become good wee martial artists and they don’t need to be. It is the practice of action/reaction and the physical confidence building that is the objective.

    Girls and women may not (usually) have the physical strength, but learning tactics might be enough in some cases. Most of all, it’s about nurturing and exhibiting that confidence. This can in some instances be the difference between being seen as a target, or not. It is a small difference, because (as it was noted earlier) sex crimes aren’t about the victims, they are about the disfunctions and power issues of the offenders. But even such a small difference is worth it and the positives apply to other aspects of life.

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  30. To the father who asks what to do to protect his daughters: Get active and publicly speak out to the MEN and BOYS in your community that you and they are the ones who need to change. You and they can stop violence to women by changing your own attitudes and holding males accountable for rape and battering. You and they can start a recall vote for this judge. You and they can lobby your legislators. Your daughters will treasure and respect you for your efforts but, more importantly, the men who are their potential attackers might yield to your peer pressure and change.

  31. Oh, and don’t forget that parents need to teach their sons this stuff too.

    Exactly. Preventing rape is not just an issue for women.

  32. Donna

    Rape is everyone’s responsibility. BOYS get raped. BOYS are molested.

    If nothing else, we need to stop treating sex as sport and teach all children to (as was said above) treasure their bodies and to be assured their own boundaries are respected.

    I have successfully raised four extraordinary daughters. I now have twin grandsons who are 3 y/o and I will be there supporting my daughter’s raising them up as I raised her.

    Lord, we teach ’em not to eat junk food and to wear sunscreen, we can also teach ’em to respect their bodies when it comes to sex.

  33. Yes, I think it’s dangerous to view sex offenses as a “male problem”. There is a broader system that need be challenged, there are cultural factors, there are individual circumstances. We have mothers as much as we have fathers, siblings, partners… For many years incest, molestation, rape, were family ‘secrets’ often kept by women and passed down among the women…

    I support your advice and intentions Donna, men need be vocal and intolerant in regard to such matters.. But we all share in the plight to eradicating consequencial acceptances and promoting positive change.

  34. The other problem with this young woman’s conviction for false report is that it will make it virtually impossible for her to ever prosecute in the future should be attacked again (even assuming she would even make a report after what she has been through already). With a false report conviction on her record, it would be virtually impossible to prosecute any future crime in which she is the victim, unless there is an independent third party witness to the crime.

    I also think Eric P’s comment (number 17) is right on point, when he refers to the common male belief that a woman rape survivor should respond violently to her attacker. This is at the core of the rape myth that a woman who failed to fight her attacker wasn’t really raped, as well as the oft-quoted observation that it is impossible to rape a struggling woman. The problem is that woman are all too aware of their lesser physical strength and are not in any way socialized to fight back. Indeed, women are often given safety tips that state that compliance is the best way to save one’s own life. It is all too easy for a rapist to subdue a woman through the threat of force, whether express or implied.

  35. What the Happy Feminist said.

    Gosh, who could possibly argue against this? I guess only pacifists, career-minded victims, and…rapists, of course.

    Marksman: It seems fairly typical in Dirty Harry-type gun advocate circles to hold the idea that the only way (or only forceful way) to stand up for your personal safety and autonomy is through deadly force, especially with guns. And to say that only “pacificsts, career-minded victims” or general bad people could oppose. But I suggest that there are lots of ways to _physically_ resist without deadly (hollow-point) force. A man with a gunshot wound to the knee and/or gut is no more likely to rape anyone than a man with a gunshot wound to the head or the heart. He maybe be more likely to do so later, but I think there’s an important distinction to be made between self-defense and appointing yourself judge, jury, and executioner. A while back someone on here made the argument that he would be justified in shooting me (to kill) if I touched his hat when he explicitly told me not to, and that anyone who didn’t agree was asking to be victimized. Now, deadly force may be more effective than disabling force in some situations, but I believe that there’s a wide panorama of grey between Dirty Harry and Ghandi. That is, there are mays to argue against that that don’t require pacifism, victimism, or intent to do bad things.

  36. The other problem with this young woman’s conviction for false report is that it will make it virtually impossible for her to ever prosecute in the future should be attacked again (even assuming she would even make a report after what she has been through already). With a false report conviction on her record, it would be virtually impossible to prosecute any future crime in which she is the victim, unless there is an independent third party witness to the crime.

    It’s going to affect her in other ways as well. If she is ever involved in litigation — civil or criminal — in any way, whether as a party or as a witness, this conviction will be admissable to impeach her credibility because it has to do with her veracity. So she could be involved in a traffic or contract dispute and this will be thrown back in her face for 10 years or so, depending on the rules of the particular court.

  37. If nothing else, we need to stop treating sex as sport and teach all children to (as was said above) treasure their bodies and to be assured their own boundaries are respected.

    I won’t argue the first part of your assertion, since I am a proponent of sportfucking and arguing would be pointless. However, the second part of this puts the burden for preserving boundaries on the one whose boundaries are being breached. And the treasure metaphor really troubles me — if we teach girls that their bodies are commodities, and only worth something in the untouched state, we encourage the kind of shame and self-blame many of the commenters have said they felt when they were raped.

  38. Beth:

    And if I didn’t have a child, I’d be packing heat all the time like I did years ago, since I physically can’t defend myself adequately with my bare hands. 😉

    I don’t understand. Isn’t defending your child just as important? If defending yourself warranted carrying when you were single, doesn’t it doubly so warrant now that you have two to protect?

    KnifeGhost:

    A man with a gunshot wound to the knee and/or gut is no more likely to rape anyone than a man with a gunshot wound to the head or the heart.

    Sadly, (as evidenced by this very discussion thread) the current legal system is pretty f’d. It is the case that one is in a better legal position using lethal force to the point of lethality in self defence, than using lethal force to merely “stop” an attack.

    And, there is a wide gulf between shooting someone for touching your hat, and shooting someone who is trying to rape you. I’d say the latter warrants deadly force. They have already appointed themselves judge, jury, and executioner of sentance in their own mind. Turning that about is fair and justified.

  39. Actually, Pablo, you’re completely backwards. My dad always gives me utterly useless “advice”, which always comes down to I shouldn’t be able to live my life in the world. He doesn’t want me to walk in crowds. Accepting gifts from men is treated suspiciously. Dates are inherently dangerous. That’s like telling someone to never leave the house for fear of being raped. Yeah, the risks are there, but you have to live.

    But when I was actually raped, it was treated like it’s just some unfortunate part of living like getting your heart broken. It’s not. It’s a crime. Society is completely backwards, with rape victims getting very little sympathy, very little effort put towards rape prevention and women told that they have to suck it up and live like prisoners if they want to avoid rape.

  40. Those of you who refer to this woman as a rape victim and the men as rapists should keep in mind that these men were never convicted in criminal court of raping her. Why is it that feminists think that presumption of innocence and beyond a reasonable doubt don’t apply in rape cases?

  41. I think the implication there, zuzu, is not the body as commodity but the body as your own. i.e. “these are my boundaries, I know what they are, and X, Y, and Z are NOT OKAY.” I also think the treasure metaphor is meant to call up self-respect, not shame, but that’s just me.

  42. However, the second part of this puts the burden for preserving boundaries on the one whose boundaries are being breached.

    I child or young teenager might not know the appropriate limits. See Lauren’s post:

    Beforehand, I wish there had been explicit talk about sex, what it is, what it means, and given the vocabulary to describe different kinds of sexual experiences. Because all I knew was that sex had occurred and sex was not for 13-year-olds, I hid what happened for two years.

  43. Those of you who refer to this woman as a rape victim and the men as rapists should keep in mind that these men were never convicted in criminal court of raping her. Why is it that feminists think that presumption of innocence and beyond a reasonable doubt don’t apply in rape cases?

    I would like to believe that her story was so full of inconsistencies that it became obvious that she was fabricating the story for some reason. In which case she was punished for it. That would make me feel better about the situation. However, in the real world, it it quite likely she has been doubly victimized. None of us know all the details and she could just be a bitch seeking revenge (or some other theory) but I suspect in reality it boiled down to the fact that she didn’t act like a rape victim “should” and it was her word against three other people.

  44. The news article was oddly written and left out a lot of information. For one thing, it seemed very odd that she would have been convicted after a bench trial. There was also very little information about how far the investigation had gotten, and whether these guys had even been arrested.

    Eric, the reason I say that Darleen’s statement seems to place the enforcement of boundaries on the child is the way it was worded, “to assure their boundaries are respected.” I’m all for teaching children that they have boundaries, what those boundaries are, that others should not violate those boundaries. But they also need to be taught that if someone *does* violate those boundaries, it’s not their fault, and that they will not be blamed for the violation of those boundaries.

    And I also think it is terribly, terribly important — and this is what was missing from Darleen’s comment — that children are taught that OTHER people have boundaries, and that they are not to cross others’ boundaries.

  45. Why is it that feminists think that presumption of innocence and beyond a reasonable doubt don’t apply in rape cases?

    Strawman–no one said anything of the kind. Try arguing with what Lauren actually wrote if you’re so inclined, but don’t pull this “why do feminists always . . . ?” shit.

  46. Re: “the men in question haven’t been convicted of rape”.

    It’s true, the possibility exists that she was not raped; no laws of physics would be violated if she was not.

    At the same time, she says she was raped. That there was not enough evidence to convict the accused does not say that she was not raped. It only means that there was not enough evidence to convict. This is, tragically, much too commonly the case in rape; there are rarely witnesses and physical evidence can often be inconclusive, especially if a woman was threatened, and stopped fighting in the face of the threat.

    If the judge is citing her reaction as evidence that she filed a false report, the judge is misusing his power. People respond to traumatic events in different ways.

    I desperately hope there is more to the story than a judge being stupid, but I also recognize that the story does not seem unrealistic on the face of it. Many people have screamed about the horror of false rape accusations while barely acknowledging the pain this attitude causes the real victims who don’t have rock-solid proof of their trauma.

  47. I heard that she underwent a personality change from a girl who worked hard in school and had steady relationships to a very chaotic, promiscuous young woman. Which all survivors of PTSD knows is a classic symptom of rape trauma. This is key evidence. I wonder who the boys were and why the prosecutors are trying to protect them. I suspect family connections.

  48. Marksmen and other advocates of deadly force:

    You have absolutely no right to kill another human being unless your life is at stake. That you take such glee in executing someone makes me sick.

    Is it me or does anyone else find the facts in this case confusing? I don’t understand what Kevin Hayden is saying. Why doesn’t he tell us what the inconsistencies are? Kind of hard to make a judgment on whether she was guilty without hearing the whole story.

    And I have to agree with the person who noted that everyone on here seems to be calling her the victim and the boys the attackers. Well, according to the person that heard all the facts, she is the criminal and they are the victims. Jeez, I would hate to be a male criminal defendant with a jury like you guys. To me this just the epitomy of bias. We hear a bunch of jumbled facts, from a biased source, and hear that the woman was convicted in a court of law, and everyone assumes she was right and the boys were rapists.

    I can understand not charging a Class C misdemeaner because it might prevent other women from coming forward. But c’mon, does noone see the injustice of falsely accusing someone of a felony sexual assault? I know, I know. Women are much more affected by rape than the minuscule false reports. But why are the feminists trumpeting this case? It feels like if it was up to the crowd on feminist blogs, rape accusations would immediately be believed, no trial, and then Marksmen would come by and put a hollow bullet in the man’s brain.

  49. My father did me a huge favour when I was a kid. He made sure I went to self defense and tai chee classes.

    Fighting back helps fight off stranger rapists sometimes but if it’s someone they know and trust? There are no precautions to be taken except keeping away from men and having no male friends and that’s neither practical or desirable. Ultimately the only way to protect them is to stop men raping and make sure that if they are they know that you believe them.

  50. I wonder who the boys were and why the prosecutors are trying to protect them.

    They weren’t “boys.” All of them were 18 and over. In fact, one of the red-flag issues in the trial was that the judge kept calling them “boys,” when they were adults at the time of the rape and at the time of the accuser’s trial. The only one who was a minor at the time of the rape was the accuser.

    But c’mon, does noone see the injustice of falsely accusing someone of a felony sexual assault? I know, I know. Women are much more affected by rape than the minuscule false reports. But why are the feminists trumpeting this case? It feels like if it was up to the crowd on feminist blogs, rape accusations would immediately be believed, no trial, and then Marksmen would come by and put a hollow bullet in the man’s brain.

    But there’s a huge gulf between “didn’t find enough evidence to prosecute,” and “falsely accused.” It’s very, very hard to tell from either the Oregonian article or the report from Kevin Hayden whether the three guys (apparently her boyfriend and two of his friends) were ever arrested, let alone charged. I also found it very odd that there would not be a jury assessing her guilt.

    And from the way the article is written, it seems that the judge thought that, well, there are consistencies in all of their stories, but I find the “boys” more credible, so I find beyond a reasonable doubt that she filed a false police report. And I’m guessing that there was some kind of requirement that she deliberately or knowingly file a false report. He found beyond a reasonable doubt that she did so when she never recanted?

    And honestly, beyond the conviction, the decision to prosecute her was apparently based on her not having a properly traumatized reaction in the days after the incident. Who made this decision? Not an expert, apparently — just her friends and a police detective. That’s pretty flimsy.

  51. But there’s a huge gulf between “didn’t find enough evidence to prosecute,” and “falsely accused.

    There is a huge difference. But in this case the woman was convicted of filing a false report. So she falsely accused these men of rape. And yes, the prosecuters had to prove she intended to file false charges. It doesn’t matter if she recanted or not. Not very many defendants “recant” in front of a judge trying to determine their guilt. It would be like her pleading guilty. Go visit a jail and see how many of those guys tell you they were telling the truth but the jury or judge didn’t believe them. Not recanting means nothing.

    The reason she is before a magistrate, I’m guessing, is because it’s a class c misdemeaner, the least serious crime in Oregon. Unless she chose to be tried by the judge instead of a jury.

    In any case, it’s really hard to figure the facts out in this thing.

  52. Right. But the decision to prosecute seems to be based on her reaction to the incident and a detective’s assessment that she didn’t act traumatized enough. That just seems completely insane.

  53. Why no jury trial?

    Maybe Oregon doesn’t allow them for misdemeanors (sum states don’t).

    Maybe in Oregon you only get to see a jury for a misdemeanor after you appeal the decision of the “municipal court judge.”

    Maybe her lawyer didn’t ask for one.

  54. What I read is that the judge cited it as one of his reasons to convict her. Maybe it factored into the prosecutors decision as well. I agree it doesn’t really matter what her reaction was after the alleged incident. That type of evidence isn’t generally indicitive of whether or not she was raped. But the magistrate had other evidence as well. This very well could be a situation that should have resulted in a not guilty. We just’ haven’t heard the facts. All we know now is that she was convicted. Certainly not enough information to call her a victim, the young men “attackers”, and call for the judge’s head.

  55. You have absolutely no right to kill another human being unless your life is at stake.

    Nonsense.

    Threaten my daughter’s life, and I’ll gut you like a fish, without a moment’s hesitation or a second’s remorse.

    Invade my home, and whether I know your motives or not, I will kill you where you stand, and be entirely justified.

  56. Marksmen and other advocates of deadly force:

    You have absolutely no right to kill another human being unless your life is at stake. That you take such glee in executing someone makes me sick.

    When you are threatened with violence and happen to have a gun you shoot for the center of the person. That increases your chances of hitting the person. Shooting for their arm or leg at anything but really short range is problematic. Escpecially if they are moving. That kind of shit only works in the movies. The center of a person at gun level is the chest (where the heart is).

    If someone tried to start a “fair” fight and I was carrying, I would hand it to a friend before starting. A fair fight it handled with your fists. If two guys came at me I would pull and aim for the chest without guilt. If I was a woman and a guy looked like he would rape me, I would pull. If he didnt’t withdraw, he’s earned his fate.

    Your blanket statement about violence is pretty cute but I suspect you are pretty young.

  57. I’m old enough to know that you guys should be convicted if you did what you describe. I’m old enough to know that your statements represent the barbaric violent culture in the U.S.

    You are only justified in killing someone if you have a reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury. You can’t kill someone because of a property crime or because a guy looked like he was going to rape someone.

  58. I’m old enough to know that you guys should be convicted if you did what you describe. I’m old enough to know that your statements represent the barbaric violent culture in the U.S.

    Barbaric?

    Barbarism is letting thugs and bullies run the world because you don’t have the stones to pick up a weapon and defend the right, Jason.

  59. What are you talking about? I’m not saying you can’t defend yourself. I’m just noting how you’re foaming at the mouth just looking for an excuse to blow someone’s head off. The use of deadly force is reserved for extreme circumstances. In fact, in all of your examples you would not be justified using deadly force.

    Somone threatened to kill your daughter? Assuming the person is not holding a knife to her throat and is somewhere else, no, you would not be justified in hunting him down and using deadly force.

    Someone is breaking into your home and you shoot? Unless you feared for you life, e.g. he was racing at you with a weapon, you would not be justified.

    Eric’s examples:

    Two guys approaching him without a weapon? No way. In fact you may have a duty to retreat. You can use commensurate force to defend yourself if you can’t retreat, but not deadly force.

    Someone looking like he’s going to rape? No way again.

    That my friends is a criminal act, not justified self-defense. It’s manslaughter. And your ghoulish delight in meeting out “justice” is indeed barbaric.

    Jill: Got this in your criminal law outlilne? Maybe you can combine blogging with studying.

  60. the decision to prosecute her was apparently based on her not having a properly traumatized reaction in the days after the incident. Who made this decision? Not an expert, apparently — just her friends and a police detective. That’s pretty flimsy.

    “Pretty flimsy” is putting it mildly. “Totally wrong” might be more accurate. I’ve had some training and experience in dealing with the after effects of trauma and can therefore say with some pretense to authority that acting “not traumatized” (that is, not acting in a way that an untrained person would instantly recognize as traumatized) is more a typical than an atypical reaction to traumatic events. Many people who have undergone severe trauma (rape, torture, etc) distance themselves from the events as a mental defense mechanism or a way to keep themselves from being overwhelmed by memories of the event. This can make them look “not traumatized” to someone who doesn’t understand how trauma can effect people. In short, the victim was probably acting exactly the way one would expect a person to act after they’ve survived a horrific event like gang rape but the judge was too stupid or too prejudiced to realize it.

    Incidently, is anyone else struck by how little play this story is getting in the mainstream press? Perhaps it’s a “dog bites man” story, ie an event so common that it’s not really “news”.

  61. I’m old enough to know that you guys should be convicted if you did what you describe. I’m old enough to know that your statements represent the barbaric violent culture in the U.S.

    Sorry, I shouldn’t have mentioned your age without a qualification. I only mentioned it because absolutes are easier when you are young. God help me but at 20 I was a liberal! I assume by your your statements that you are early twenties.

    I, for the record, don’t believe that anyone should automatically shoot to kill in response to a crime. However if the person has a reasonable belief that life or health (theirs or someone else’s) is threatened they have the responsibility to shoot. When you shoot, you shoot for the “center mass”, ie the middle to upper torso (where the heart is).

    I won’t mourn the loss of someone who would threaten someone else’s life or health.

  62. Tresspassing in a dwelling or an in-progress sexual assault are both situations where a reasonable person has a legal, reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury, either to themselves or others.

    As good as it feels to be a feminist man and pretend to be all big and tough and think we’re protecting women when we tell them to open fire on their attackers, it’s not realistic in all but a handful of rape situations. I don’t know anybody that doesn’t put away their loaded firearm when they think they’re in a safe situation with someone they trust, and that’s where I understand most rape to occur.

    It’s hard to concieve of a more intimately destructive and unfair crime than rape, which is why you see a lot of men – myself included – react so viscerally to the idea of something so bad happening to someone we care about, and being powerless to prevent it or make it better.

  63. Eric, I am not a young man anymore (31), but I never said, as an absolute, that you can’t defend yourself. See my above post.

    Anyway, I thought absolutes and black and white is what happened when you got older and became a conservative?

  64. “A duty to retreat”.

    You can stop talking at that point, Jason. You’ve pretty much summed up the whole chestless-man position right there.

  65. Dianne:
    Many people who have undergone severe trauma (rape, torture, etc) distance themselves from the events as a mental defense mechanism or a way to keep themselves from being overwhelmed by memories of the event.

    That is exactly how I respond to any traumatic or highly stressful circumstance – absolute calm and serenity. And then later I completely fall apart.

    That’s a survival mechanism, not a reason to prosecute somebody.

  66. You can stop talking at that point, Jason. You’ve pretty much summed up the whole chestless-man position right there.

    We’ll see how tough you are in the slammer, kiddo. Have plenty of opportunity to pound your chest and test your mettle.

  67. Two guys approaching him without a weapon? No way. In fact you may have a duty to retreat. You can use commensurate force to defend yourself if you can’t retreat, but not deadly force.

    “A duty to retreat” would only encourage the attackers to repeat their behavior. Shooting to hit (ie in the body) may kill but at the very least it will put the person down. Using force to defend yourself requires force/violence. Whether a gun is involved or not, the atacker could die from the force. At the end of the day, the attacker deserves what he got. The victim certainly didn’t ask to be attacked.

  68. That is exactly how I respond to any traumatic or highly stressful circumstance – absolute calm and serenity.

    You, me, and, from everything I’ve read about this case, the young woman who is being prosecuted (freudian slip, I first wrote “persecuted”) for making a supposedly false report. It is a perfectly typical reaction, but one that a person who had no training or experience in dealing with survivors of trauma might mistake for being “not traumatized”. The detective in the case should have known better, but perhaps he wasn’t very experienced or, possibly, isn’t very good at reading the reactions of victims of crime. Hopefully, the victim can appeal her ridiculous conviction on the basis of the judge’s lack of understanding of the psychology of trauma survivors.

  69. At the end of the day, the attacker deserves what he got.

    Perhaps, but guns make it too easy to kill someone by mistake. There was a famous case a few years ago here in NYC in which several undercover police officers saw a man pulling what they thought was a gun out of his pocket. They shot him and he died. It turned out that he was pulling his wallet out of his pocket, apparently fearing that this group of men approaching him were muggers. I remember another case in the 1990s in which a man shot a teenager who he thought had drawn a gun because he saw a silvery glint in the boy’s hand. It turned out to be a candy bar with a silvery wrapper. Even if you’re really being attacked, a gun can easily shoot an innocent bystander as well as the attacker.

    Use a knife. It’s less likely to kill a bystander, you’re less likely to kill in the first few seconds and therefore more likely to be able to say “oops, sorry” if you’re wrong in your assessment of risk to yourself, and it’s more manly. Anyone can kill with a gun, a knife takes skill. (/semi-sarcasm)

  70. Eric, although you are a degenerate hippie Canadian and thus beneath contempt, I like the way you think.

    Thanks I guess… Knowing many, many Canadians, I can’t say I blame you for your statement;-).

  71. Actually I’ve never met a Canadian I didn’t like. Which leaves me all the more puzzled as to what the hell is going on up there. You too, probably. 😉

  72. Jason, Robert, Chef and everone else,
    I suggest we stop our debate at this point. Our argument is taking place in a thread where women are talking about cleaning up the blood after being raped. Out of politeness and respect let’s save it for a another thread more on-topic. I for one won’t respond any more to this sub-topic. I’m more than willing to take it up at a later an more appropriate time.

  73. When you are threatened with violence and happen to have a gun you shoot for the center of the person. That increases your chances of hitting the person. Shooting for their arm or leg at anything but really short range is problematic. Escpecially if they are moving. That kind of shit only works in the movies. The center of a person at gun level is the chest (where the heart is).

    Center mass is exactly what NYPD officers are trained to shoot at, which is why there are often a seemingly inordinate number of shots fired at wrongful death victims (i.e., the infamous 41 shots fired at Amadou Diallo).

  74. Not traumatized enough? I was molested by my step-father for years and somehow managed to live life and hide it from everyone, including my mother. Why? Because I had this huge fear that no one would believe me. For more than 15 years I decided I’d rather keep the pain, shame, embarrassment to myself rather than risk having someone tell me I was making it all up to get attention. Long after I was an active feminist I kept it a secret, even as I encouraged other friends to report their attacks.

    Self-defense might help in many cases, but it won’t help everyone. My mother now knows the truth and is wracked with guilt about it. I wish I could absolve her from it, even as I blame her for not believing my much more minor complaints about him, not having an honest discussion about sex, and never telling me that she would believe me if I told her I was abused.

    She had told me when I was 17 (several years after the abuse started) that she’d been raped by a neighbor when she was 16 and that she would probably kill herself if she found out that anyone had harmed me. In retrospect, it was an exaggerative comment, but it stuck and I lived for years in fear that she would find out and off herself. Even at the age of 32 when I finally told her, my first comment was “Don’t hurt yourself” and she had no idea what I was talking about.

  75. My response to several items above: 1. Of course rape is not just men’s responsibility. I ASSUME women are already speaking out about it and organizing against it. 2. I can respect my boundaries until the cows come home but that will not prevent me from being raped. That respect-your-boundaries admonishment presumes that people who are raped or battered didn’t display their boundaries sufficiently. 3. Alleged perpetrators are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. In the court of public opinion or in blogs we are not held to that requirement.

  76. this goes right to the core of our patriarchal puritanical society. men are socialized to believe that they are not responsible for their actions because the women made them do it. It’s Eve and the apple, baby. they wouldn’t beat us if we didn’t make them so jealous. they wouldn’t rape us if we didn’t look so sexy. they wouldn’t cheat on us if those other sluts hadn’t thrown themselves at them. you know, men wouldn’t even have lustful thoughts if women would just stay out of sight.

  77. Marksman2000: Men have been acquitted of rape even when the rape was videotaped. Women who report rapes are often not believed and are treated horribly by the police. It is extremely difficult to get a rape conviction. How likely is it that a woman who uses deadly force against a rapist or potential rapist is going to be believed, especially if the rapist is from a “good,” well-do-to family? If a woman uses a gun to defend herself against rape, she runs a great risk of being prosecuted for assault or manslaughter, not praised for defending herself. Your statements about guns fly in the face of the reality of rape prosecution.

  78. It’s a sobering irony that we love and value our life and the lives of our families and friends so much that we’d be willing to end another human being’s existence to protect them. But that’s reality. It’s one of the many difficult decisions we might have to make.

    I’ll agree that this thread has digressed into a topic that isn’t pertinent, mainly because, as somone mentioned, most of these cases are domestic in origin. Very few forms of self-defense will work if we’re assaulted by someone we care about and/or trust.

    But I’ll keep it for another forum and say no more.

  79. This thread has been quite eye-opening. Coincidentally, yesterday my 11yo daughter came to me and asked me “what is child abuse?” – she’s heard it on the news. My husband and I have been very candid about sexual matters whenever the kids have asked, concentrating on “it’s natural, it’s fun, but there are risks so you need to be careful and make sure you’re really ready” as the basic approach.

    So I was able to have an open, wide-ranging discussion with both her and her 12yo brother about all forms of child abuse, then specifically sex abuse, and that often sex predators like to pretend to be kids’ friends for a long time just so that one day they can be sexual with the kids, and that sometimes that’s even true of daddies, mummies, grandparents, uncles, church fellows, teachers etc etc. Even thought most people are decent and kind, there are always some people who think of others as things rather than people, and you can’t tell from the outside who’s who.

    I told them that should tell me, Daddy or some else they trusted if anybody molested them. I was able to tell them straight out that even if Daddy touched them sexually, that if I found out that he had been pretending all these years, I would believe them and protect them. (I then reassured them that I really truly believed that their lovely father was a kind and loving man who was not not NOT a predator, and that trust in his decency and kindness was one very big reason why I had married him ).

    Then I talked more generally about abuse and how the abusers try to tell kids that it’s the kids’ fault, that nobody will ever believe them, that they will kill the kid or the kids’ family if they tell, and how the kid should tell anyway so that they and their family can be protected, and how it’s never ever the kid’s fault.

    As my daughter is already my height and starting to shed the puppy fat, I will have to have more pointed discussions with her about rape sooner than I would in some ways like. But this has been a fairly good ground to build on, I think.

    Thanks to all for this discussion. It meant I had the words right there when I needed them.

  80. Anyanka Says: this goes right to the core of our patriarchal puritanical society. men are socialized to believe that they are not responsible for their actions because the women made them do it. It’s Eve and the apple, baby. they wouldn’t beat us if we didn’t make them so jealous. they wouldn’t rape us if we didn’t look so sexy. they wouldn’t cheat on us if those other sluts hadn’t thrown themselves at them. you know, men wouldn’t even have lustful thoughts if women would just stay out of sight.

    ‘Cause you know that all men are just looking to beat, rape and kill women because we are “socialized” to do it. No offence intended to all the other feminist(e)s present but this kind of overly broad and silly statement is exactly why so many people male and female are unsupportive of the “cause”.

  81. Rape wouldn’t be as prevalent as it is, and wouldn’t go as unpunished as it usually does, without the tacit aid of a significant portion of the community of men.

    So complaints about “overly broad generalizations” don’t really carry any weight. The generalizations, honestly, don’t seem to be that broad.

  82. Rape wouldn’t be as prevalent as it is, and wouldn’t go as unpunished as it usually does, without the tacit aid of a significant portion of the community of men.

    So complaints about “overly broad generalizations” don’t really carry any weight. The generalizations, honestly, don’t seem to be that broad.

    So talking about “men” as a general term isn’t “that broad” when when it comes to victimizing women. We all do it, or at least a significant portion of us do it or that is what you are implying. If I made such broad generalizations about all women, blacks, asians, etc I’d be a bigot (and even I would agree if that were the case) but because it is about men, it is okay.

    When I started writing this I was angry and wanted to write something nasty in response to your nastyness but now I just feel sad that you feel this way. It must be hard hating half the population of the planet. And very lonely.

  83. I don’t hate men; being one myself, that would be kind of stupid.

    But it shouldn’t be lost on you that rape is an almost entirely unbalanced crime; the victim of a rape is almost universally a woman and the agressor is almost universally male. And there’s no consistent “rapist” demographic; it appears that almost any man can become a rapist with no warning or provocation. As far as I’m concerned, that’s reason enough for us all to be under suspicion.

    If rape were simply a matter of a few bad apples it wouldn’t be as common as it is. I’m sorry you found my comments “nasty” but since sexual assault is something almost one in four women have to deal with, the least you can do is suck it up when a comment is a little too general for your ego to handle. I’m sorry it rankles you to be considered a potential rapist. It doesn’t sit well with me, either. But that’s not the fault of the women who’ve been victimized by men, it’s the fault of men failing women.

  84. Ugh. When a relative of mine was in a car wreck which killed her sister, the police told her later that they were charging her in part because she “didn’t act upset enough” at the scene. Um…because she was in SHOCK. I’m constantly amazed at how stupid people are.

  85. Society is completely backwards, with rape victims getting very little sympathy, very little effort put towards rape prevention and women told that they have to suck it up and live like prisoners if they want to avoid rape.

    Amanda, that is precisely the frame of mind that I’ve recognized as a big part of the problem and am advising against in my post at #29. My advice is the very rape prevention you’re bemoaning the lack of efforts toward.

    I’m entirely unclear on how this makes me “have it all backwards”.

  86. “Beforehand, I wish there had been explicit talk about sex, what it is, what it means, and given the vocabulary to describe different kinds of sexual experiences”

    I wasn’t a victim of rape, just repeated violations of privacy that definitely went well past harrassment, but I very much agree with this. I had a hard time to going to my parents in part because I was confused about what was going on, what my “rights” were, how “normal” (or not) it was for boys to do this, and because, after having gone to them once and not seeing lasting results, nor being given any information about what they were doing to deal with it, I didn’t really see the point.

    “It would be like her pleading guilty.”

    Or a confession (confessions don’t always result in a guilty plea), which is why people are bringing it up with regard to there being reasonable doubt of her guilt. There is also the point that part of not recanting means that even if there are inconsistencies between the stories, hers has remained consistent over time.

    “My advice is the very rape prevention you’re bemoaning the lack of efforts toward….I’m entirely unclear on how this makes me “have it all backwards””

    A) Individual assessment of risk is not the same as rape prevention. It’s more like rape avoidance on an individual level – there is no reason to think that it does more than keep the least vulnerable women safe – sometimes.

    B) The language used for most rape “prevention” advice (irregardless of all the disclaimers) sets up the dichotomy that one is either stupid or a victim, one cannot be both. Or, at the very least, that one is less of a victim if one did not assess risk properly.

    “see that they know there are bad people out there,”

    You are supposing not only that it’s possible to recognize the bad people before you are put into a vulnerable position, you are also suggesting that bad acts mean that the person is cartoonishly a “bad person” – an attitude that actually makes it more difficult for girls and women to accurately judge when they are vulnerable. I had no reason to believe that the boy who was responsible for harming me would have done so, and he most certainly was not a “bad person” neither then nor now, just a person with faults whose actions were in certain ways condoned by society. The idea that only “bad people” do bad things was part of what kept me from going to an adult.

    “It’s a dangerous world, and vulnerable people will get hurt in it.”

    Someone will always be more vulnerable – we can’t leave it up to potential victims to protect themslves, especially when definitions of “vulnerable” vary from not knowing one’s rights to dressing a certain way or going to certain places.

    “As a practical matter, teaching your child how to cope with being a victim is a poor substitute for teaching them how to avoid being a victim.”

    This supposes that force and knowledge alone can prevent one from being a victim. It doesn’t do jack shit to protect one from molestation on a crowded subway or sexual harrassment – it just sometimes keeps it from escalating into something worse.

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