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“Stay tight, wear white”

Jill

–advice from a father to his 13-year-old daughter. Is it just me, or is that a completely disgusting thing to be saying?

Feministing scours this one quite nicely, pointing out the huge double-standards in how parents talk about sex with their kids and how it perpetuates young people internalizing this kind of sexism. It’s worth a read, even if a lot of the comments will make you cringe. Not-so-surprising point: In every category of sexual experience, the kids have done quite a bit more than their parents thought they had. For example, only 1 parent thought their kid had given oral sex, while 51 actually had (on the other hand, 10 parents thought their kid had received oral sex; perhaps they believe their children to be selfish?).

And if that’s not gross enough for you, allow Twisty’s latest to stir up some righteous rage about our neighbor to the north: In Canada, you can now get away with rape if you claim you had “sexsomnia.” That’s right, if you rape a woman and claim that you were sleeping while doing it, you’re a-ok — you didn’t know what you were doing, even if you did have the sleep-raping foresight to put on a condom.

27 thoughts on “Stay tight, wear white”

  1. It’s not advice from the father to the daughter. It’s the father talking to the magazine.

    Hope you read your contract cases a little closer. 😉

  4. I’m more than a little bit disturbed about the answers to “do you think your kid is gay?”

    “I hope he is straight. I assume he is.”
    Mother of a 17-year-old boy

    “Not sure. We are tolerant of him in the family.”
    Mother of a 16-year-old boy

    “My son is definitely straight. We have a gay relative and he doesn’t like him.”
    mother of a 15-year-old boy

    Also, the list of things about what’s inappropriate for teenagers to be doing ranges from “having sex with prostitutes” to “oral, anal, it’s all sex.” A bit curious…

  5. The comments are extremely cringe worthy. The article looks more like a joke than anything. Tell me the comments were a joke as well. please.
    I often wonder how valid these surveys really are or if they are all in some way contrived.
    I am not that far from that age myself. I grew up in a Maryland suburb. I know there were probably a few people and or parents who would have answered in a similar way to the survey in that article but the majority of people I knew would have been more along the lines of the quote in the feminista article “”If you are mentally ready it’s okay. Girls should not be ashamed about being sexual.”
    I’m not saying I don’t believe it I just …don’t always believe it.

  6. Robert, please explain how the difference in audience changes the meaning of the sentence. Oh, right, it doesn’t. It’s gross no matter who he says it to. Your attempt at pulling a “gotcha” is sad.

  7. Anne, the intrinsic message of the father’s speech is unobjectionable – “I hope my daughter stays a virgin until she gets married”.

    Therefore, the locus of the comment being “disgusting” per Jill, is not in the intrinsic message. It is how the message is phrased, and to whom the message is directed.

    I can formulate a statement concerning my daughter’s sexuality that is inoffensive, that would be disgusting and inappropriate if I said it to her, but that would be funny or even wise if I said it to my wife.

    Audience matters.

  8. I’m not sure that’s what “stay tight to wear white” means, though, Robert. My read on it is “stay a virgin so you’re not impure and dirty on your wedding day.” Related ideas, but definitely not the same.

    The fact that he’s expressing it to his daughter via the magazine doesn’t make it less objectionable as phrased.

  10. It’s the father talking to the magazine.

    Why on earth would the father in question want a magazine to wear white? Or “stay tight”?

    Wait, I’m suddenly unsure: December 2 is Respond to a Troll Day, isn’t it? If I muffed the date, my apologies to Feministe.

  11. As long as were are talking about crim and sexsomia (or whatever), and if this happens to show up on my final (My professor is they type to do that), under the MPC, does the guy get off because:

    No Actus Reus because the rape was not a voluntary act (assuming he really has this disease)

    No Mens Rea because he didnt have the purposeful intent necessary for rape

    Or Both?

    My head is currently going with both, but head is not always correct.

  12. Has sexsomnia ever even happened? Is there some sort of precedent for this protection – which wouldn’t excuse it, don’t get me wrong? I mean, who even thinks of these things?

  13. I have a sleep disorder. Every so often (every other night when I’ve been really stressed) I get out of bed, run out of my room and run out of my house, because I’m convinced that my house is about to explode (or something equally catastrophic). In this state I can walk, I can carry out conversations, I have moved things because I was convinced it would make me safer. Once I couldn’t unlock my door so I went back to my window, considered jumping out, decided it was too high, and then went back to my door. I’ve talked to doctors about it and they didn’t have a clue, and there was no specialist in the country they could refer me to. It has become much less common now I listen to relaxation tapes before going to sleep.

    This is just a long way of saying I do believe that you could put a condom and start having sex with someone in your sleep. I’m not convinced this man was (the alcohol thing seems wonky to me), but I do believe it is possible. But if you are prone to doing things in your sleep that may damage people then you need to get treatment, and take repsonsibility to make sure that it doesn’t happen again. I don’t have a problem with him not going to jail (I don’t really believe in jail), but I do think he’s partly being treated the way he is because he’d only ever done it to partners before and that was in some way different – which is really wrong.

  14. Anne, the intrinsic message of the father’s speech is unobjectionable – “I hope my daughter stays a virgin until she gets married”.

    Robert, he’s saying about his daughter “Don’t get your vagina stretched out.” Your interpretation is awfully loose given the briefness of the quotation.

    I mean, maybe he was joking around and he’s got a sense of humor about it, but even then I’d say MOST PEOPLE think it’s pretty gross for a father to be thinking about his teenage daughter getting her vagina “stretched out” (and I’m not even getting into the sexist, urban legend aspects of that). If you think that’s “wise,” well then, to each his or her own.

  15. After reading Feministing’s take and then the entire article, then plenty of comments, I think there seems to be a lot missing from the commentary… i.e. I want to hear more about how you would deal with these particular scenarios?

    What happened sexually when you were a teen? Was it what you expected? Were you disappointed? Were you thrilled? Did you wish some things had happened differently?

    And (for some this may be hypothetical, but a good mental exercise either way) what would you do as a parent to instruct your children about sex? What age is appropriate to begin discussion? What would you tell your kids? What do you think is appropriate sexual behavior for a teen?

    I think it might be easy to jump down someone’s throat for a completely crass comment, but I think Robert has a slight point in that the actual spirit of the comment might be a little different than how we might infer meaning from it. I don’t agree that it’s an appropriate thing to say to a young girl, and I certainly wouldn’t say it myself. But I’m reminded of something my father said to me when I was 16 or 17 (and still a virgin): “So you’re vegetarian now… how can you eat pussy?” Could anyone even begin to think there is any well-meaning if completely distorted view behind that?

    I know for me personally, I didn’t have sex until I was 17, and even then I felt pressured to have it because I hadn’t and a lot of my friends (both male and female) had… I felt… not “manly” enough. My first couple of times having sex I was terrified… terrified I wasn’t “good enough,” terrified I was going to do something wrong, terrified of getting my feelings hurt or hurting the other person. Thankfully, that first person, and my first couple of sexual partners were experienced, patient, and willing to teach me things.

    And I appreciate that my mom (who raised me and my brother and sister after my parents got divorced when I was 10) took time out and was very frank and honest with me about sex. I think some time around age 10 or 11 we had our first “sex ed” in school, and when I got home I told my mom about it and she sat me down and laid a few things out for me. She said if I ever had questions to just ask. I don’t remember ever her ever saying things like “wait ’til your married” or anything like that (even though she is Catholic), but she wanted me to have all the knowledge I could so I would be able to make the right choice for me when the time came.

    Do I regret having sex as a teenager? Sometimes… I wonder what would be different if I had waited, or if the first time had been with someone else. But I feel very lucky that my partners were people I cared about and people that cared about me. My experience with them, with my mom and her openness, and through my volunteer efforts at Project AIDS (where I learned all one could ever possibly want to know about protection) all led me to have a positive, open attitude about sex.

    So my girlfriend (who I live with) has a nine year-old daughter. All she ever talks about it boys it seems. She has told me she doesn’t really trust most adults, including her mother. She has told me in general she trust me. So I feel, being a trusted adult with some authority over her, I have to ask myself “What do I tell her? When do I tell it? How do I tell it?” Obviously I may have some opinions, but I don’t know what it’s like to be a teen or even pre-teen girl. But I have to consider there may be a time when she needs someone to talk to and I might be that one person she feels comfortable talking with. So I have a responsibility to be prepared to discuss these topics in a manner I think is appropriate. I know telling her “Stay tight to wear white” isn’t it, but maybe that father thinks it’s his responsibility to say something along those lines. You know, when I turned 18 no one gave me a copy of “How and What to Say to Your Kids About Sex and When to Say It.” Perhaps if I had been more influenced by my own father, I might be prompted to say “Stay tight to wear white.”

  16. The “stay tight” remark is the polar opposite of the old favorite “old enough to bleed, old enough to breed.”

    And yes, I have heard fathers use that one.

    Blech.

  18. Jill

    Ok, that one comment from the whole NY article was weird and can be taken loads of ways.

    But I found it interesting you gave this post a first category of “Sexual Assault”

    Um… assault?

  20. #15 foresmac

    The best thing you can do for that little girl is to emphasise for her that she needs to respect herself before anyone can respect her. That includes not using her body as a commodity for “popularity.”

    I’m sure she gets the information from her mom, you, school, culture about physical health – eat right, exercise, wear sunscreen, etc. Well, being healthy by being choosy about sex falls right in line with that.

    This is going to be an ongoing process. At nine, while she’s thinking about boys, its more of the ‘crush’ thing and fantasizing about hand holding and cuddling. That’s normal! Soon it will be BoyBands and she’ll have pictures on her walls to swoon over. Anything beyond that … ie if she is overtly and inappropriately sexual I’d urge her mom to check into what is happening at school. I’d give the same advice to parents of a nine y/o boy, too. Inappropriate sexuality at this age is a warning sign that should not be ignored.

    As she gets older (same advice for boys) discussions should revolve around three main things … 1) what is happening physically to her and what she should expect. 2)how those changes are going to affect her thinking and emotions 3)appropriate responses on her part to the first 2 points.

    I know this is very general and broad, but it gives a basic strategy. Every child is different and has different comfort levels on where they want conversations to go. Some kids take puberty in stride and others really struggle with the profound changes.

    Culturally we moved away from the kind of ceremonial markers for milestones of puberty. I don’t think this has done any favors to kids as they swim upstream in a culture dominated by media that divorces action from consequence.

  21. Lauren

    Thanks. Yes I saw that link (unbelievable!). I just was associating the first category with the title of the post and the main point of the NY article.

  22. the polar opposite of the old favorite “old enough to bleed, old enough to breed.”

    “Old enough to bleed is old enough to butcher” was in the Satyricon and I doubt it was invented then.

  23. There is just no justification for a father to be thinking about the tightness of his daughter’s vagina. I’d have been horrified and grossed out to know that my father had expended any thought on my vagina at all, let alone on its elasticity.

    I mean, there are far better ways to communicate to your children that you’d rather they wait for marriage without showing quite so much pointed interest in the state of their genitals.

    As for the sexsomnia case, one of Twisty’s Canadian commenters pointed out that there’s no double jeopardy in Canada, so the Crown can appeal the ruling.

  24. Most people think that Joe talking to Frank is different than Joe talking to Larry, Anne.

    That doesn’t change the fact that Joe’s a dipshit and his advice sucks. “Stay tight, wear white?” Uhhh . . . isn’t “tight” what guys like?

    And a big raspberry to the idea that “you have to be a virgin to deserve to wear white on your wedding day.” Also to the implication that whoever he’s talking to is supposed to get married (singlehood is a valid and acceptable choice).

  25. I thought I wrote a pretty nifty essay about that survey!

    I don’t think it’s that they think they are selfish, but that parents don’t want to think of kids as having agency.
    My kid? Oh, he lies back and thinks of England

    It’s not the most representative survey, of course, Plus. The difference beween performing sexual acts and reciving them, a difference that reveals itself throughout the survey, may simple be a result of differences in how parents think of their teen’s sexual activity depending on ifit’s a boy or a girl. You’d have to have more detailed breakdowns for a better analysis.

    At any rate, my quick riff on it was that parents don’t like to think of their kids as engaging in actual sex, whereas they’re better at thinking about it if it’s more abstract, passive imagery. *not much better though*!

  26. Stay tight, white

    This guy reminds me of the type of asshole that would make jokes in front of friends and family about putting his daughter in a chastity belt.

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