Newsflash: Women Reach Their Expiration Date at 20 (And 15-Year-Olds are Totally Hott) December 1, 2005 Lauren This coming from this: Somebody smells a little sour.
As somebody who uses this picture in every Derbyshire-related post I can find, regardless of the content, let me just say “Harry Dean Stanton called… he wants what he’ll look like in 2048 back.”
Dishonest quoting. In the original, Derbyshire went on to say that civilized mature males move past physical attractiveness as the sole criterion as they form relationships with same-aged women.
In the original, Derbyshire went on to say that civilized mature males move past physical attractiveness as the sole criterion as they form relationships with same-aged women… …but if they get a chance to bed with a 15 year old they’d better damn well appreciate her tits.
I actually like Derbyshire’s crotchety-old-Tory schtick a lot of the time, and his willingness to be a little contrarian at times. (He agrees with Larry Summers, I believe, but devoted a whole column to algebraist Emmy Noether and the sex discrimination she faced without once using Noether to put down today’s female scientists.) But Lauren’s quote is totally fair, I have to say, and I think he intended it to be that inflammatory, based on his anticipation of hate mail.
Also, this little tangent was based on Jennifer Aniston’s Esquire pics. I don’t think Esquire had her pose topless as some kind of feminist statement about how women are still attractive past 30. They did it to sell magazines. Real magazines, in the world of reality.
Robert, I’d like you to repeat that line to your wife with no caveats. I’s really like to see how well that goes over at your house.
Females have their physical attractiveness peak at a young age. Deal. You know, that sounds suspiciously like “It’s not my fault the adolescents are hotter than the people who can legally consent!”
By the way, I have an issue with the use of “females” as a noun. Adjectives, people. A female human is a woman and a male human is a man. The only time I ever hear people use the females/males bit is when referring to the opposite sex, which I find quite telling.
He’s just describing reality. Females have their physical attractiveness peak at a young age. Deal. Maybe I’m just odd, but I’ve met more than my share of, ahem, “mature” women who were, in my humble opinion, gorgeous. Were they not already married or otherwise committed, I might have even attempted a date or two. Silly me.
The only time I ever hear people use the females/males bit is when referring to the opposite sex, which I find quite telling. Or when discussing animals.
By the way, I have an issue with the use of “females” as a noun. Adjectives, people. A female human is a woman and a male human is a man. And this from a so-called Engrish teacher. ‘Female’ in your objectionable context is simply a shorthand for ‘female humans’ of all ages, whereas the more common “women” or “girls” are age-circumscribing terms.
Zuzu, damn it, I meant humans. Don’t make me be precise after grading papers all day. 😉 Actually, I wasn’t trying to be pedantic. “Females” or “males” is commonly applied to animals, if the species-specific term isn’t used. Most animals other than humans reach maturity within a few years, and other than horses, cows and chickens, there are really no terms used for animals that are both age and sex specific, like women/girls or men/boys. And even with horses, cows and chickens, those terms have less to do with social constructs than with commercial ones. So using “females” and “males” to refer to human beings strips away some of what makes us different from animals.
Nice of him to specify that us older folks are interesting for “other reasons.” But I wonder; I’m nearly 70, and I’m still getting the occasional hopeful approach (less often since I got the buzz cut) from people who, I am sure, know nothing of the “other reasons” they should be interested in me. And I hear from those who should know that my tits are still pretty good.
When I was 15, I had braces, no boobs, and hadn’t yet learned how to control my wavy hair. It was a mess. I don’t think I got my shit properly together until I was past voting age. But maybe I’m just bitter because I’m past my sell-by date.
Robert, I’d like you to repeat that line to your wife with no caveats. I’s really like to see how well that goes over at your house. “You perv. Why are men all such pigs?” At least she said “men” and not “males”. Otherwise I would have felt oppressed. Dave’s point is a good one, and the reason for my choice of words. What word should we use, then, to describe female humans of all ages?
I (I’ve generally dated older from the time I was fifteen) and anyone who has attended a high school reunion would beg to differ. Maybe your perspective is different when you, you know, actually have sex with women.
Oh, now I’m pissed off. And I’ve got the gym and the arroyo calling for a workout. But I’ll have something to say about Derbyshire tomorrow. Having just spent several hours last night with 15 and 16 year-old girls and boys in my youth group (many of whom match Jill’s self-description at that age, and many don’t), I’ve got a bone or two to pick with him — on several levels.
Hugo, before you go pick the bone, do at least read what he says, and what he does and does not claim.
now Robert, honestly, what you mean are “what the media portrays as teenagers are hot” 15 year olds, male or female, aren’t nubile, smooth skinned, and graceful. So teenagers on TV and film are layered with makeup to look older. This has a lot in common with porno/stripper “I’m 19” crap. no. you’re 24. which is good. because 19 year olds have very little in the way of desirable apperance. nothing says “fun” like akward sex with someone who resembles a blemished manniquin stolen from Dillards. I mean, there was that Horse-whatever guy about a week ago, but… I won’t quote at length from Baby Got Back, but you get the idea. also “pedo says ‘what?'”
I read the quote — and it seems clear he doesn’t think that women past 20 are interesting to look at in the buff (but those in adolescence are). If that’s not what he meant,explain what he did mean. Of course, I’m from the “eroticizing adolescents is a social construct and not part of masculine hardwiring” school.
Rather than having me explain what he meant, why not read the full text of the article he wrote, instead of relying on a quote from a biased source.
I read the whole article, when it came out (because I actually read National Review), and there’s nothing biased about the quote. The stuff about mature men caring about things besides physical attractiveness was an after-the-fact aside on the Corner blog.
15? Come on, most of them still haven’t lost the baby fat. Plus you need to drive them home afterwards! Seriously, I do agree that women tend to be at their most pretty younger than men but only by a few years. I think it is mostly to do with the fact that girls start to look more like women younger (say around 20 on average) while a boy doesn’t start to look like a man until at least his mid twenties. Until then, “males” (see Lauren I used it for the same sex) tend to look boyish rather than hansom. The good news for women is that they tend to keep their looks at longer than men. 15 years past 20 women tend to look a hell of a lot better than men who are 15 years past 25. Of course this all has to do with how you define “pretty” or “hansom”. I’ve seen some really sexy women in their 40s and 50s. And some men grow more dignified as they age. It is all a matter of how you take care of yourself. Too many men give up on taking care of themselves.
But maybe I’m just bitter because I’m past my sell-by date. Just so’s you know, some of us fellows do buy from the “Reduced for Quick Sale” bin at the grocery store.
Of course, I’m from the “eroticizing adolescents is a social construct and not part of masculine hardwiring” school. Of course, “adolescence” is a social construct itself and of far more recent origin than male atttraction to females with freshly-minted breasts, hips, and regular menstrual cycles.
I will join the chorus of those who beg to differ from Derbyshire and Robert. Older women are much more beautiful than pubescent and post-pubescent girls. It’s much easier to see that beauty when one looks at a woman’s entire body instead of just her b00bs, as Derbyshire seems to do.
Attractiveness goes through waves as we age, and most of the things we find attractive about people of a certain age are offset by other things which accompany them but we tend to disregard when thinking whistfully towards those days. For example, young people have better skin tone, true, but they also often have acne/etc. Young people are often skinnier, have higher metabolisms, etc, but at the same time they’re underdeveloped and uncomfortable in their own bodies. There are things I miss about my younger body, but IMO I’m a lot more handsome now than I was at 15 or even 20 for that matter. There’s always a sense of “the grass is greener on the other side” about these sorts of comments, fantasizing about young girls or young boys, etc. That is, if there’s even grass on that field in the first place.
Of course, “adolescence” is a social construct itself and of far more recent origin than male atttraction to females with freshly-minted breasts, hips, and regular menstrual cycles. Sorry, adolescence is way too awkward and immature to be sexy, no matter the package.
It is somewhat disturbing to find out that I expire this year. What is it about men and their inclination toward pedophilia? I feel the same way when I see men rambling on about preferring women with totally shaved pubic hair.
The quote provided on Tapped is nearly the complete original quote. The only part they clipped off consisted of a couple of sentences: The Nautilus and the treadmill can add a half decade or so, but by 36 the bloom is definitely off the rose. Very few of us, however, can face up to this fact honestly, and I am sure this diary item will generate more angry e-mails of protest than everything else I have written this month. Derbyshire’s explanation about what civilized male conservatives (his term) desire and respect in women came later, after he’d taken some grief from some correspondents. I don’t have a beef with the idea that as a person matures, what he or she values in a potential mate can change and include a wider range of characteristics other than physical beauty. What I do disagree with is Derbyshire’s arbitrarily choosing an age after which a woman “loses” her physical beauty apparently based on his own preferences and representing this as some sort of “fact”.
Yo, Protein Wisdom, you forgot Dazed And Confused because of this little gem I’m sure Derbyshire would have loved: Wooderson: How’s this year’s crop of freshman chicks looking? Don: Woods, you’re really going to end up in jail sometime really soon. I know that for a fact. Wooderson: No man, no. Let me tell you. That’s what I love about these high school girls, man. I get older, they stay the same age.
I feel the same way when I see men rambling on about preferring women with totally shaved pubic hair. Come on! What red-blooded man doesn’t like a shaved woman? A vulva is a beautiful thing and at having all that hair in the way just hides it. A man’s “sexuality” is visible with or without pubes but a woman’s is totally hidden in most cases. I personally think that a woman’s pussy is incredibly sexy and enjoy the view. Plus, for oral, it beats the hell out hair in your mouth.
W/ regard to Robert’s original comment, I don’t care if Derbyshire thinks that young = hot. Big deal, so does society in general. It’s just that the 15-20 comment is rather creepy. I really doubt that most grown men find fifteen-year-olds attractive (actual ones, not the 20-something actors on tv). I don’t think I’m being naive on this..when I was fifteen, I mostly got hit on by other 15-year-olds of course, and by pedos.
When I was 15, I had braces, no boobs, and hadn’t yet learned how to control my wavy hair. It was a mess. I don’t think I got my shit properly together until I was past voting age. I was curious how you got those beautiful, perfectly straight teeth.
Some of this is personal preference. I like 18-35, but mainly because it’s a cool demographic. But from a purely evolutionary breeding machine perspective, the human body is probably geared to lust after younger females. Also, would anyone disagree that men aged 18-35 say on average,, are in better shape and more attractive than older men?
I was awkward and frizzy-haired and generally ugly until about 16. But, and this is the important thing, I didn’t have breasts until I was about 19, really. And that I think is mostly what grosses out the “teenagers are more booo-te-foool” crowd–boobies. Frizzy hair, braces, but no scary, scary mammaries. Boobs. Who knew they were a way of separating the men (likes them) from the boys (afraid of them and come up with misogynist fantasies about how women grow pendulous breasts to thwart male desire)? Frankly, I’ve never wanted big ones until now. That or training bras are easier to remove for the slow-witted conservative male. I’ll go ahead and stop before this gets worse.
I thought we primitive cave men-types were supposed to be attracted to women who look fertile, i.e., with boobs and hips. So confused.
Frankly, I’ve never wanted big ones until now. Cool, let me know if you get surgery. I’m a hanger man, myself. When I discovered the only thing Jill can hang is paper, I wept real tears. Your ability to impute motives, not only in situations without data, but in situations with contradictory data, is an inspiration for all of us.
By the way, I have an issue with the use of “females” as a noun. Adjectives, people. A female human is a woman and a male human is a man. I don’t know, Lauren, if you posted this from the perspective of a feminist or a grammarian (or both). However, in my unending quest as a writer attempting to make original use of the language, I often use verbs as nouns, adjectives as nouns, verbs as adjectives, and so forth. It’s a lot of fun because you can take a typical, oft-used word and turn into something new. Kate Chopin was very good at this. Take a look at the last paragraph of her superb short story, “A Pair of Silk Stockings.” A man with keen eyes, who sat opposite to her, seemed to like the study of her small, pale face. It puzzled him to decipher what he saw there. In truth, he saw nothing unless he were wizard enough to detect a poignant wish, a powerful longing the cable car would never stop anywhere, but go on and on with her forever. “Study,” normally used as a verb, is used here as an adjective, maybe a noun. ” Wizard,” typically reserved as a noun, is used here as an adjective. These are words we’ve all heard before, but they’re being used in a new, exciting way. It always gets the attention of your reader. I know what you’re thinking: 1) Who gives a shit? If I need a Grammar lesson, I’ll look up Strunk & White. 2) Marksman reads and enjoys KATE CHOPIN? No way–there’s just no way. Well, yes I read Kate Chopin. I think she’s a fantastic author, and I never tire of her work. If you’re a feminist and you’ve never read Chopin, please do so. It’s amazing that an American writer–a woman–would explore these types of themes back in 1896. But, of course, The Awakening essentially ended her career.
Robert, your motives are alien, though the need to tell all legal aged women they are unattractive, the desire to establish that marriage to you is enemy warfare between two sexes who are so unlike they can’t really like each other and your expressed desire to cut me up with a hanger….. It is a pattern. Call it garblefunk or misogyny if you like. Fucking song is stuck in my head now. While tearing off a game of golf I may make a play for the caddie But when I do, I don’t follow through Because my heart belongs to Daddy. Famously sung by the disgustingly be-breasted Marilyn Monroe. Why did they let that ugly bag of horse shit in the movies? Was it some 50s plot to keep men from ever having hard-ons again? “Curves! No! My erection will never return again! Damn you, MGM!”
You know what I really want someone to whisper in my ear when naked and getting it on? “Darling, while your decrepit body is disgusting, I’ll weather through because I love your mind.” Rwowr!
Actually neither, Marksman. It’s a pet peeve that we tend to talk about “males” and “females” when we disapprove of the actions of whatever sex is named as such, or if we view that sex as Other. I see it mostly from young people and, oh, how it irks me.
expressed desire to cut me up with a hanger Uh, maybe I’m just being prurient here, but that’s not quite how I read that….
Gross, Lauren. If there’s anything less sexually appealing than a grown woman, it’s one who does anything but lay there looking bored or irritated.
By the way, I have an issue with the use of “females” as a noun. Adjectives, people. A female human is a woman and a male human is a man. Lauren, as another English teacher, I thank you for that. Females, ugh. Female what precisely? Kangaroos? Pipes? Female humans are women. A man who is about 412 years old actually apologized to me for reminding me that I’m over 30 the other day. Cause, you know, women are all crones after 30. I found it quite funny. In Frances Burney’s Evelina there’s a character who asks what women live for after 30, when they’re just in other folks way. Of course, the fact that he had just been shown for the horse’s ass he was by a woman character over 30 might have had something to do with it.
No, because I can’t say, “Gee mister, I’ve never seen a naked man. What do you even call that thing?” while smacking my gum and giggling. Well, I can try. But I’m not saying it’d be a convincing performance.
the need to tell all legal aged women they are unattractive, the desire to establish that marriage to you is enemy warfare between two sexes who are so unlike they can’t really like each other and your expressed desire to cut me up with a hanger….. I will pay $1000 to the feminist charity of your choice for each of these characterizations that you can demonstrate to be true, as judged by a neutral party.
Plus, for oral, it beats the hell out hair in your mouth. Actually, I was thinking about hair up the nose. Very tickly. But that’s just my experience. As for the age thing, these are my thoughts: 1- Younger women tend to be more physically attractive than older women in the same way that you men tend to be more attractive then older men, but… 2- …15 is traveling too far on the young side, isn’t it? 3- And it is worth noting that what truly makes a woman attractive is something far more than the sum of her breasts, legs, and ass. 19 year olds may be lovely to look at, but the conversations are somewhat limited. 4- The most amazingly gorgeous woman in the world is well past Derb’s theoretical sell-by date. When we saw The Interpreter, my girlfriend leaned over to me and told me that Nicole Kidman was so gorgeous that it was almost distracting. I agreed (although not too enthusiastically). Not only is she beautiful, but she carries herself with amazing grace, her voice is angelic, and she’s an incredible actress. Anyway, the important thing is that we all remember the lesson of the tickly nose.
If I make like a Real Doll will you take me on a date? Can we play Halo together? I promise I won’t say anything…
‘fraid not. I’m too busy going out looking for someone to marry who can tell me that he’ll marry me if I just hand over the uterus rights and accept that he sit around wistfully wishing I was 14 and expecting me to indulgently roll my eyes and say, “Oh you men.” Why I want this, I don’t know. A diamond ad said I have to, though.
Last diamond ad I saw told me to buy myself a diamond ring bloodied by a nine-year-old’s severed hand in an central African mine because I’m worth it. That one, dears, goes on the right hand (so they know you aren’t married).
Here’s a question: Why do men offer to buy women they find attractive drinks? I mean, if a man finds you attractive, by definition you’re not young enough to be fuckable. So what’s that about?
Stupid phone. Okay, let me write that joke properly: I mean, if a man finds you attractive, by definition you’re too young to drink. So what’s that about? And, as an afterthought–why go to bars to cruise women anyway? Aren’t high schools the proper grounds for that? Damn, it’s a wonder anyone gets laid.
Oo oo, pick me, Amanda, pick me! I can do all that, plus make you want to cook elaborate steak dinners every single night! I’ll even buy you a huge diamond ring to make you happier!
I now realize that Robert did not express a desire to cut my up with a hanger. He said he’s a “hanger man”. I have no idea what this is. Please, for the love of god, someone tell me, because I’ll bet it’s stupid.
Famously sung by the disgustingly be-breasted Marilyn Monroe. The hell? Oh wait, I read that as ‘the disgustingly be-breasted Marilyn Manson.” p.s. The MM cover of Sweet Dreams was piles better than the cheesy Eurofag synthpop of the original.
If I make like a Real Doll will you take me on a date? Can we play Halo together? I promise I won’t say anything… Jeez. Go get a room, fungirls.
Amanda: relax, there’s no need to be so terminally-outraged. You might get wrinkles. AND THAT WILL MAKE YOU LOOK OLDER
I think (based on the declaration about paper) it has something to do with setting things on the breasts, and seeing how long until they become less porno-pert and more fleshy flop type stuff. fuck I dunno. I was really confused by that too.
When I was 15, I had braces, no boobs, and hadn’t yet learned how to control my wavy hair. I was awkward and frizzy-haired and generally ugly until about 16. Post Proof or Retract
damn, why didn’t anyone tell me i’ve gone sour? i heartily agree with the 15-was-a-mess memories: i was bootyless, boobless, big-footed and goth. *shudder*
Somewhat off-topic, but a teacher I’ve never seen before stopped me in the school library today and asked me if I had a pass. I held up my book of passes and nodded. She ambled away while two of my students amusedly looked on. Weird. I’m almost 25. It’s been a long damn while since high school and I sure as hell don’t look like a teenager.
…I think I object to use of the term “Eurofag synthpop,” Dave. it’s just… so offensive on so many levels.
And setting things on top? I’m totally confused now. Does this have anything to do with the “pencil test”? Because we marching members of the Itty Bitty Titty Committee have the “pencil test” in our list of Ten Eternal Truths About Washboard Women. 4) We will always pass the pencil test, even when we have to lift our boobs to zip up our pants.
Eurofag synthpop sounds like my idea of heaven. You know, when surrounded by a forcefield of Eurofag synth pop, which has the tremendous benefits of a) cool synthizers b) European sophistication and c) the gay gayness about it, you are not only rocking the booty and having fun, but assholes who channel certain, shall we say “hang-ups” through politics are physically repulsed out of the area, much like vampires don’t like the sunlight. So sayeth the Disco Ball.
Hell, I’d settle for boob-less pictures of an Amanda. There seem to be something like half a dozen women presented as “Amanda Marcotte”. (You must be the Zartan of the feminist blogosphere.) Anyway, ugly doesn’t just evaporate. If you’re not a hosebeast now, you weren’t a hosebeast then even if you thought otherwise.
Hangers are large breasts possessed by (generally) more mature women, Amanda. They “hang”, and thus the name. I happen to prefer mature women with large, pendulous breasts. (TMI, probably. Sorry.) I recognize that this contradicts your wildly funny witticisms about how everyone whose opinions about attraction you find offensive are hebephilic deviants yearning for hairless breastless pre-adolescents. Good luck with the cognitive dissonance.
See, the only time I’ve ever heard of bodies and hangers is with clothes models who are supposed to be thin and small-breasted to serve as human clothes hangers for designers. So, yeah. I thought “hangers” meant super-thin women, too. Most certainly not large breasts. Blogs. Free education in euphemism.
Then what the fuck are you defending the Derb for? He just made fun of your unnatural desire for women who are mature. Pervert. Really, they should ban you from marriage. It’s not natural and threatens traditional marriage between middle aged creeps and teenage girls. Half a dozen women? David, I hate to break it to you, but just because I change up my hair alot doesn’t mean I morph into different women.
I think I object to use of the term “Eurofag synthpop,” Dave. Good. What’s the point of using objectionable language if it’s not, well, objectionable? much like vampires don’t like the sunlight. That’s actually a myth. Vampires are actually highly allergic to pollen, which is expressed by flowers during the daytime.
Okay, well vampires don’t like wholesome things like flowers and sunlight and stunted individuals don’t like synth pop with a bit of flair. The analogy still stands. I think you’ve managed before to dig up a bunch of different pics of me with different hairdos and assumed it must be different women. I assure you, I’ve met enough people in public from the blog that you’re the only person who probably couldn’t pick me out from my picture by now.
Hangers are large breasts possessed by (generally) more mature women, Amanda. They “hang”, and thus the name. I happen to prefer mature women with large, pendulous breasts. (TMI, probably. Sorry.) That’s what I was getting at many comments above when I said that cutting Amanda up with a hanger wasn’t how I interpreted Robert’s description of himself as a “hanger man”. I instantly interpreted it as per his description that I’ve quoted here. The porn has clearly corrupted me.
““Study,” normally used as a verb, is used here as an adjective, maybe a noun. ” Wizard,” typically reserved as a noun, is used here as an adjective.” Study is indeed a noun, but it’s not her innovation. An artist’s “study” of an object/person’s face =preliminary sketch. Wizard isn’t an adjective here. Still a noun. The surrounding construction is a bit unusual, but probably archaic (to us) rather than innovative (for her). Parallel usage: “I’m only in my first year of med school, so I’m hardly doctor enough to diagnose your condition.” Or, “You’re not man enough to do it.” /pedant-fu
David, I hate to break it to you, but just because I change up my hair alot doesn’t mean I morph into different women. Well, if some random person on the street came up and told me that this, this, this, and this were the same woman, I would tell them to go take a #2 because they’re obviously full of the shit. I don’t know how the fuck you do it, but you do.
OK, I’m all confused. I didn’t actually enter pubescence until 16, almost 17. One day in school at 17 I dressed up for a debate and was mistaken for a teacher. (Call it mid-20’s) Ten years later at 27, I was being hit upon in karate class by a 16 year old who thought I was a HS student. Was I attractive all that time, or unattractive? Did I suddenly drop ten apparent years and thus gain attractivness? Apparently it’s all over now, and the “bloom is off the rose” as I’m 36. But the guys in my dojo think I’m younger than they are (they’re VERY wrong). Should I be thinking that they’re over the hill? Do I need to tatoo my age on my forehead so that no man might mistake me for nubile? Attractiveness is such a personal concept that trying to define what “men” in general think is attractive is both misguided and doomed. Ditto for women. I thought Sean Connery was downright ugly in his early years, but by god if there was a sexier 50-year-old on the planet, I don’t know who it was.
Uh, maybe it’s a womonly thang (b/c I too have had just about every hair cut and color under the sun) but those all look like the same person to me. Just curious, but what do you think Amanda’s motivation for lying about this would be?
Tapetum, It was just the opposite for me. I reached my full height at 13, was a C cup with hips and all that. High schoolers and older perverts were always hitting on me. By the time I was 16, most people thought I was in my twenties. Guess I should have taken advantage of it during my pretty years (12-16.) *sigh*
Free education in euphemism. Always happy to expand your world. Then what the fuck are you defending the Derb for? He just made fun of your unnatural desire for women who are mature. Doesn’t it get tiring, having to write all your own material AND write all the material for the people you want to put words in the mouths of? It must suck to have a worldview so fragile that it can’t even bear contact with what people say.
Uh, maybe it’s a womonly thang (b/c I too have had just about every hair cut and color under the sun) but those all look like the same person to me. Not at all. In the first one, she’s dressed like a cat, another one is from Halloween where she went as Norbizness, and in the last one she’s disguised herself as some woman named ‘Mel’. I’m not sure who that other person in all those pictures is though.
Come on! What red-blooded man doesn’t like a shaved woman? A vulva is a beautiful thing and at having all that hair in the way just hides it. A man’s “sexuality” is visible with or without pubes but a woman’s is totally hidden in most cases. I personally think that a woman’s pussy is incredibly sexy and enjoy the view. Plus, for oral, it beats the hell out hair in your mouth. It does certainly …. so do you shave your penis and your balls?
Anderson Cooper is pretty hot, but he doesn’t top Mr. Connery for me. Robert – My objection to Derbyshire is that he takes his own (rather creepy) tastes in women, and assumes that they are objective truth. If I were a man, I would find him insulting. As a woman I find him insulting (nobody will find me sexy ever again?), and creepy.
Anderson Cooper is pretty hot, but he doesn’t top Mr. Connery for me. He also won’t be 50 for another 13 years or so.
David, I tend to do the same thing in my pics. You look a little bit different, but not by much. Amanda is some sort of chameleona.
My objection to Derbyshire is that he takes his own (rather creepy) tastes in women, and assumes that they are objective truth. My objection to the whole argument is that it takes a quote out of context and treats it as objective truth. Not to mention that going from “peak of attractiveness” to “no one will find me sexy again” is a horribly exaggerated straw man. But what the hell, why let a little thing like intellectual honesty and fairness get in the way of a good rant?
Pedantic point: The shorthand use of “females” for “female humans” or “women and girls [and even female infants]” is pretty standard in demography, and various other social sciences, where precision, rather than social nicety, is called for. If you’re studying fertility rates among those aged 12-25, for example, it doesn’t really make sense to label the group either “girls” or “women.” Similarly in studies of how age categories are constructed in a (foreign) society, it may be useful to say something like “females are considered ‘[vernacular term A]’ until age X, at which point they become ‘[term B]’, which they remain until they are married, and become ‘[term C]’.” Having said that, I would not totally balk at the argument that in ordinary face-to-face interaction, the terms “female” and “male” (used as nouns) often sound awkward. But I would not assume that such usage was either ungrammatical or intended as insulting, particular in a context bridging the usual age distinctions implied by man/boy or woman/girl. Sometimes, of course, it is simply silly. “You Go, Female!”
And it is worth noting that what truly makes a woman attractive is something far more than the sum of her breasts, legs, and ass. 19 year olds may be lovely to look at, but the conversations are somewhat limited. As someone who is friends with plenty of highly interesting and intellectual women my own age, I must vigorously protest this characterization.
I really resent the fuck out of blowhard guys speaking for me, claiming we all want young, we all want skinny, we all want blonde, or dumb, or submissive, etc. etc. etc. . . . . It’s weird, because depending on how fast or slow a young man matures, he might wind up as the last guy in his group to get interested or assertive with girls. And all his friends are pointing him in the direction of giggling little 14-year-olds, and he’s feeling nothing towards them. Soon the aggressive friends are fucking various little child-women, and our 17-year-old virgin hero is alone on the porch, drunk, smoking, wondering what the fuck is wrong with him. Nothing’s wrong with him at all. He just needs to finish growing up and meet some grown-up women. In the end, he doesn’t regret his preferences . . . but it sure sucked at the time. And media blowhards like this jackass just remind him. It’s such a wedge issue with me, it makes it hard to have male friends at all.
I step away, get a bite to eat, drink a beer, put one in the air, come back, and there’s 100+ posts on this one. Damn! I’m attempting to leaf back through the posts to find what’s driving this thread. It must be all the chatter concerning breasts, boobs, hips, ass, and so on. It always sparks an interesting exchange, wouldn’t you agree?
I think young women are actually nowhere near their most-attractive in their mid teens and I agree wholeheartedly with the poster who described herself as gawky/geeky at 15. Maybe this is partly because a women in her mid-twenties has got to grips with grooming, make-up, hair, fashion, which in our society is a lot of what makes a woman conventionally beautiful. Young men on the other hand can be truly gorgeous in their mid to late teens.
You’re pretty easy to fool with a change of clothes and lipstick, David. Just kidding! My life is actually a Bergman movie and David’s the first person to notice I have different actresses playing the part of Me in my life, all who look almost exactly alike, except for different hair and make-up and clothes. Gives me more time to read blogs. What can I say?
My life is actually a Bergman movie and David’s the first person to notice I have different actresses playing the part of Me in my life, all who look almost exactly alike, except for different hair and make-up and clothes. You and Queen Amidala. Stay away from those angsty Jedi boys; they’re trouble.
Wait, am I supposed to be bothered that Derbyshire would not find me sexually attractive? If anything, that’s a bit of a relief. Tanooki Joe, thank you for sticking up for your peers. When I was 19, I was very annoyed by the assumption that teenage girls are brainless, shallow, and therefore unworthy of Teh Male Gaze. It’s an old and filthy trick of the patriarchy: making women fight over male attention. Not to mention that the “teenage (college) bimbos” stereotype is used to legitimate ill-treatment of young women by their male peers.
Robert, you said this: He’s just describing reality. Females have their physical attractiveness peak at a young age. Deal. I (reasonably, I believe) read that to say that you believe that 1) attractiveness is largely objective; and 2) you agree with Derbyshire that women are most attractive in just a few years after reaching (biological) sexual maturity. Then you said this: Hangers are large breasts possessed by (generally) more mature women, Amanda. They “hang”, and thus the name. I happen to prefer mature women with large, pendulous breasts. (TMI, probably. Sorry.) I recognize that this contradicts your wildly funny witticisms about how everyone whose opinions about attraction you find offensive are hebephilic deviants yearning for hairless breastless pre-adolescents. Good luck with the cognitive dissonance. So, when you made the first statement, were you just flying that flag for convenience, because you are yourself an example of an adult man that is physically attracted to more mature women? Or are your saying that you’re in a minority? I think this tension quite rightly prompted Amanda to ask you: Then what the fuck are you defending the Derb for? He just made fun of your unnatural desire for women who are mature. Is attractiveness merely subjective, in which case your defense of Derbyshire for telling the “truth” is without merit; or are you claiming that you’re some kind of unusual case?
Just a question about the whole debate about the use of the word female: What noun would you use to describe, accurately, that you are refering to female humans of all ages? The word woman tends to denote a maturity not found in 2 year olds (would you call at two year old girl a woman?). Girl give the picture of those prepubescents that Derbyshire favors. So if I wanted a concise way of saying ‘women of all ages’, how would I go about it? When the context as human is understood, wouldn’t female accomplish this? I can’t really think of another noun that would work (of course, I’m certainly not an English major…) ps – Lauren I do understand where you’re coming from in your original comment. More times than I care to remember, I’ve heard the word female used in a deragatory fashion (‘Damn females’, ‘Oh, those females’, etc). Just that I’m a scientific person, so I tend to think of these things in an objective way, and as a male, I’d like to know when I’m unknowingly offending someone.
What word should we use, then, to describe female humans of all ages? Well, since we’re discussing sexual attractiveness, we should say “women,” since we’re only talking about people who’ve gone through puberty. That said, if I could play devil’s advocate for a moment, saying “I find women in their 30s/40s/whatever hot” isn’t really an answer to “beauty peaks at 24.*” I think Kristin Davis is better looking than Hilary Duff, but I don’t know if the difference would be even more pronounced if you compare Davis in 1983 with Duff now. Of course, I’m talking physical beauty, and indeed specifically the type of physical beauty that inspires lust. One reason I didn’t use my girlfriend as an example is that I know her too well to judge her on looks alone. But to say “adolescence is way too awkward and immature to be sexy” is branching out into other criteria (although you don’t need to meet an individual adolescent to guess she’s going to be immature, since that’s what the word means). Younger women do, of course, have the advantage of not knowing their own sexuality well enough to even have a glimmer of recognition of what a lousy lay a man is. *I refuse to even consider the notion that beauty peaks at only 20.
See, the only time I’ve ever heard of bodies and hangers is with clothes models who are supposed to be thin and small-breasted to serve as human clothes hangers for designers And here I was thinking breasts you could use as a towel rack (er, no pun intended).
I don’t care if Derbyshire thinks that young = hot. Big deal, so does society in general. It’s just that the 15-20 comment is rather creepy. I really doubt that most grown men find fifteen-year-olds attractive (actual ones, not the 20-something actors on tv). I don’t think I’m being naive on this..when I was fifteen, I mostly got hit on by other 15-year-olds of course, and by pedos. This is a really good point. If fifteen-year-olds are so goshdarn attractive, why are they so commonly portrayed by people in their late teens to late twenties? Few of the “teen” actresses on, say, the WB are actually still minors.
How many 14-year-olds are you friends with, Tanooki? They’re about the same percentage of your age as you are of mine.
It does certainly …. so do you shave your penis and your balls? I actually know quite a few men who shave their balls. They seem to like it. (I’ve recommened waxing, but for some reason that never seems to fly)
Jill, I was gently critical of you on my blog this morning… just a friendly warning. Not an argument with your thesis, but an argument with your posting the Derbyshire photo. Just a friendly and respectful heads-up…
Robert, are you saying that “what physical traits I prefer in a sex partner” is not equal to “physical attractiveness”? Are you saying that “what physical traits I find appealing in women I look at in a sexual way” is not equal to “physical attractiveness”? Is “physical attractiveness” subjective or objective?
As close readers of Pandagon comments know, both my wife and I shave our pubic hair intermittently. I don’t think that a shaved public area on a grown woman with hips and breasts visually suggests a prepubescent girl at all. In fact, it’s something I have generally seen in the BDSM community, and I identify it as a kinkster look, not a quasi-pedo thing.
Whoops, LAUREN, I was gently critical of you on my blog this morning. Sheesh, I’d better quit while I’m still behind.
Thomas, Both. There is very little disagreement among heterosexual men regarding the “tens” of this world. Our “preferences” generally describe that subset of the less-than-perfect/willing-to-give-us-the-time-of-day population of women we are prepared to settle for. For example, I tend to prefer a more feminine body type, neither obese, nor rail thin (and, incidentally, this happens to be the type that ages most poorly, because of the effects of prolonged exposure to gravity and free radicals on soft tissue) but I would be forced to make an exception for a woman resembling Uma Thurman as Venus in Baron Munchausen (18, naturally.) Indeed, should VR technology ever make it possible, I would, as the saying goes, hit that. Most assiduously.
how many of the “young female humans” whom derbyshire lusts after do we suppose would find him attractive? he is certainly past his “physical attractiveness peak.”
“how many of the “young female humans” whom derbyshire lusts after do we suppose would find him attractive? he is certainly past his “physical attractiveness peak.” ” I wonder if Derb has given any thought to how long a man’s “physical attractiveness peak” lasts. I really hadn’t, until just now, because I tend to see other people, as, you know, people. Hmmm Let’s see. If I think of all the guys I know and have loved and grown up with, I’d estimate that men are at their most attractive for a few short years in their late 20s, maybe even early 30s if they don’t develop office bod too early. Gosh, why don’t I see more magazine and newspaper articles exhorting men to settle down, find a nice girl and start a family before they lose their hair and get a gut? Shouldn’t men worry more about dying alone and unfulfilled? Could we maybe get some hysteria going so we can save these poor guys from squandering their youth and beauty?
Huh. I never got hit on at 15. I do get hit on a lot at 36. Go figure. And no, Derby wouldn’t have a snowball’s chance in hell with me. But I think I can rest easy since I’m past the sell by date.
Zuzu, that means you’ve missed some of my more revealing comments. With the possible exception of Piny, who keeps the specifics a little closer to his vest, I’m the most vocal member of the BDSM community in our little corner of the blogosphere. Did you think you were the only kinky New York litigator from Connecticut around here 😉
DTLV, I’m not sure there’s “little” disagreement about the “tens,” nor would I concede that all the tens are between 15 and 20 as Derbyshire says.
are you saying that “what physical traits I prefer in a sex partner” is not equal to “physical attractiveness”? Yes. Are you saying that “what physical traits I find appealing in women I look at in a sexual way” is not equal to “physical attractiveness”? Yes. Is “physical attractiveness” subjective or objective? Largely objective within a particular culture, with some variation. Some people might not think Uma coming out of the shell is a “10”; very few approaching none think she’s a 2.
Largely objective within a particular culture, with some variation. Some people might not think Uma coming out of the shell is a “10″; very few approaching none think she’s a 2. Yes, but the same could easily be said of Uma now–as well as of a great many women much older than twenty. Which means that Derb was making an objective statement about a particular culture that’s not true.
How many 14-year-olds are you friends with, Tanooki? They’re about the same percentage of your age as you are of mine. A few. I’m a bad example — I don’t have a considerable web of friends ( I tend to be introverted and solitary).
I asked this at PW, I’ll go ahead and try it here. If any of women were to have a purely physical, hot monkey-love weekend getaway at the beach, what age partners would you be looking for? And on a personal note, I like women who like me, not many qualifications beyond that.^^
Well, of course there’s fierce disagreement about who is the best of the best of the best, which is perfectly natural, but astonishingly beautiful women are pretty much universally recognized as such. Somebody in this thread mentioned Nicole Kidman, for example. Not my cup of tea, for reasons I’ve explained, but if pressed, I’d have to concede that she is, at worst, a 9.8. Well within the margin of error. Sometimes in an argument, a man will refer to some gorgeous woman who he finds slightly less gorgeous than his favorite gorgous woman as “a nasty, dried up old skank,” or something, but this is mere bombast, not to be taken seriously. Beauty’s gifts linger longest on her favorites. Furthermore, astonishingly beautiful women tend to be astonishingly beautiful for a living. This is one of the most lucrative professions in the world, and they wisely reinvest a good deal of their earnings in various artificial means of prolonging their earning power. I’m certainly not arguing that all the tens are between 15 and 20. As far as I’m aware, Jennifer Connelly is the most beautiful woman in the world, and she is over 30, older than me and a mother. That’s not Derb’s position, either. He exaggerates a bit, for effect (I strongly suspect that he’s tickled to know he’s become the subject of a Two Minutes Hate at a place like this,) but certainly by the end of her twenty-fifth year, it is safe to say of any woman, “ten” or otherwise, that she looked better naked at some earlier date (barring unusually late development of secondary sex characteristics, or a brief epoch of obesity.) “Safe” at least for me to say, from behind this protective monitor. The fact that polite fictions and lies by ommission are a neccessary condition for human civilization doesn’t make them true. I feel like a bit of a Costanza, saying this stuff, but then, so’s Lauren for her challenge to Robert in #10. Costanzaing on: Sniper, Derb says that few of us look good naked after our peaks are past, and that a woman’s peak is shorter than a man’s, generally. Both of these are true observations. In fact, I suspect that few men are much to look at, even AT their peak, such as it is. Mercifully, women do not care so much about physical attractiveness (they do when looking for a casual sex partner, but they are not often in that frame of mind,) and the attitude of “winnerishness” (which, in its many forms, is what women go for the way men go for hotness) is FAR easier to fake.
DTLV, I still disagree. It’s hard to test your theory that women generally look worse after 25 than at some time before, because unless we marry young, how many of us see the same non-celebrity woman naked extensively both in her teens or early twenties, and after twenty-five, such that a comparison across time is possible? Maybe your female friends get naked in front of you a lot. And celebrities are subject to too much image-management: body doubles, lighting, airbrushing, editing, photoshop, cosmetic surgery … I do know that some of my wife’s friends look more attractive to me in their thirties than in their twenties. Some have simply “grown into their looks.” And I can think of many women whose public photos look better to me later in life (think Hillary Clinton in law school, in her early twenties, versus the campaign trail in 1992). I also disagree that the most attractive women make their living with their looks. One of the women that is on my top-ten-all-time list is a litigator, and not one that tries jury trials, either. I also think people are not so much in agreement about famously beautiful women. I find Paris Hilton unattractive physically, though lots of people disagree. And that leaves aside social cues that disqualify some people for other folks — some people think Marilyn Monroe or Jennifer Tilly are unattractive because they are not super-thin. Some people would not give Jenny Thompson (the US Olympian swimmer) a second look because she’s tall and very muscular. Or Gabrielle Reese — same phenomenon. Years ago, I had a big crush on a classmate who was a flat-top butch, and I thought she was absolutely beautiful, but lots of guys would not even register her sexual attractiveness because of the cultural element — gay and butch may not count for them as “female” in that sense.
If any of women were to have a purely physical, hot monkey-love weekend getaway at the beach, what age partners would you be looking for? One who’s old enough to know where my clit is and how to operate it.
If fifteen-year-olds are so goshdarn attractive, why are they so commonly portrayed by people in their late teens to late twenties? Various constraints on permissible working hours and education of legal minors.
So Robert, you’re saying that the women you prefer are not physically attractive? Nope. Robert, can you please just tell us what you are saying? Seriously, I have no idea what point you’re trying to make.
Robert, you’ve said you prefer mature women with pendulous breasts. You’ve said that what you prefer is not what is attractive. You’ve said that within a culture, attractiveness is objective. You’ve said that Derbyshire was right. Derbyshire said that women are physically attractive between 15 and 20. Therefore, the women you prefer ar not physically attractive. Where do you get off the bus with this?
Derb says that few of us look good naked after our peaks are past, and that a woman’s peak is shorter than a man’s, generally. Both of these are true observations. I don’t know what you mean by “true observations”. In my years of observing men, naked and otherwise, I’d say that a man’s peak of physical beauty comes later than a woman’s but is certainly no longer. Of course – and I shouldn’t even have to add this – physical beauty is not the same as sexual attractiveness or personal worth. Thank goodness.
Thomas, “physical attractiveness” and “what I prefer” are not identical concepts. Pervert. I can’t believe they let you marry.
Sheezlebub, I got hit on when I was 16 and 17, but I looked older for some reason, barring the lack of boobs. I could blend, for some reason. My favorite line as an adolescent, “Nice to meet you, the name’s Jailbait.” Yeah, I was a pill as a kid. Which all just means that the Derb would say I was over-the-hill at 17, I’m sure. FWIW, I’m a sick pervert who should be banned from marriage like Robert. I don’t find teenagers especially eye-catching, never have. I like my body a lot more as an adult, now that I’ve lost all the baby fat, and I certainly like men who are filled out a little and not gawky teenagers a lot better.
Plus, for oral, it beats the hell out hair in your mouth. cooper Says: It does certainly …. so do you shave your penis and your balls? If you know guys with hair on their penis, I suggest you refer them to a doctor. That ain’t natural. Hair above, below and around is natural but “on” is a problem. Unless the woman is doing serious deep-throating, pubic hair on a man won’t be an issue. If it becomes an issue the guy should definitely trim/shave it out of respect. As a guy I would rather be scratched but stubble than have hair in my mouth while going down on a woman. And like I said being able to see her genitals is a huge turn on.
I actually know quite a few men who shave their balls. They seem to like it. (I’ve recommened waxing, but for some reason that never seems to fly) Unless you are teabagging, hair on balls is not an issue. Certainly not enough to consider waxing – ouch! Keeping it short and out of the way is “polite”. Since Jill “guessed” what kind of underwear I was wearing and the color, I am not going to say any more;-).
If you know guys with hair on their penis, I suggest you refer them to a doctor. That ain’t natural. Hair above, below and around is natural but “on” is a problem. Uh oh.
zuzu Says: One who’s old enough to know where my clit is and how to operate it. You could pick out any teenage boy and tell them that it is a Nintendo control paddle;-). Seriously, the comment about “operating” a clit gave me a good laugh. It sounds so “technical”. Computer nerds should really know the ins and outs of operating your clit. Once they find it anyway;-)
If you know guys with hair on their penis, I suggest you refer them to a doctor. That ain’t natural. Hair above, below and around is natural but “on” is a problem. A lot of men have hair that grows on the base of their penis. A good tip for size-kings: Shave or trim that hair off, it’ll make your junk look bigger. Also, re: oral sex, I’ve heard that removing ball hair can seriously increase sensitivity and pleasure.
Unless you are teabagging, hair on balls is not an issue. You don’t get your balls licked when you have oral sex? Someone’s mssing out… And this conversation has officially crossed the line to “too far.”
I’ve heard that removing ball hair can seriously increase sensitivity and pleasure Nah. I shaved Jeff just yesterday and I didn’t feel anything.
And this conversation has officially crossed the line to “too far.” I’m guess I’m missing out. I do feel bad about bringing up the term though.
And this conversation has officially crossed the line to “too far.” Yeah, really, kind of undermines the whole “don’t talk about naughty things because my daddy reads this site!” meme.
Also, re: oral sex, I’ve heard that removing ball hair can seriously increase sensitivity and pleasure. If it requires shaving or waxing I’ll take your word for it;-).
Unless you are teabagging, hair on balls is not an issue. Baloney. I don’t know exactly how it gets there, but (ptui) it gets there, even with the longest yard.
Um, Robert? Somehow I think “physical attractiveness” means something very different to me than it apparently does to you. You like older women with pendulous breasts – they are physically attractive, to you. You seem to be confusing that with commercially beautiful, which is a somewhat different standard – somewhat closer to “something the majority of people in a given population would find physically attractive”. The later can be a (somewhat) objective standard. The later is very, very personal. Or to quote from somewhere else “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”
Gee, I always took shaved genitals to be more of a minimalist aesthetic thing. You know–if you’ve got a livingroom with nothing but one Eames chair, a glass coffee table, a Noguchi floor lamp, and a tasteful arrangement of bamboo in a square black vase–you don’t have to be a feng shui master to think that a guy with hairy balls would totally throw off the effect of the room.
[quote]# Robert Says: December 1st, 2005 at 5:05 pm He’s just describing reality. Females have their physical attractiveness peak at a young age. Deal.[/quote] He is describing his reality and your reality perchance. Granted, he might be describing the reality of most males towards females. I would not know. If this is true, it is in a womon’s best interest to perceive herself outside such an unevolved, loathful belief system.
I know what Robert means. There’s a society-wide standard of beauty, and if I weren’t talking to a group of intensely argumentative people who like to be contrary I’d add “and we all know what it is.” Robert presumably thinks Mrs. Robert* is beautiful. He knows she doesn’t look like Angelina Jolie or whomever *Apologies if I’m slighting a fellow Lucy Stoner
Tanooki Joe, you said that, at 19, you don’t find 19-year-olds shallow, so it’s not appropriate for e.g. me at 27 to find a 19-year-old shallow. By that standard, you at 19 may not find a 14-year-old shallow.
Tanooki Joe, you said that, at 19, you don’t find 19-year-olds shallow, so it’s not appropriate for e.g. me at 27 to find a 19-year-old shallow. By that standard, you at 19 may not find a 14-year-old shallow. Hardly. Most people of any age are shallow, and my age cohort has no shortage of them. I just don’t like sweeping generalizations, especially when it includes people I highly respect. 🙂